First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan

The Koran burnings were confirmed as an accident, yet severely damaging to our relationship with Afghans.

Now a (insane and possibly drunk) US soldier is accused of murdering 16 civilians, including a two-year-old child. I think we're going to be shown the door pretty quickly.

The gunman, believed to be a lone rogue soldier, went from house to house in two villages in southern Kandahar during the night.

Shooting began at around 3am, according to officials. Among the victims were at least three women, a child aged just two and elderly men.

Neighbours said the soldier had appeared drunk and relatives of the victims claimed chemicals were poured over the dead bodies to burn them. Pictures of the scene appeared to show the remains of burning in at least one of the houses. [...]

The gunman, reported to be an Army staff sergeant, returned to his base after the spree and is said to have turned himself in. US officials have confirmed he is in custody.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

...I think we're going to be shown the door pretty quickly...

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Sounds good to me. Let's get outta there pronto and leave it to the vultures.

He did what no other American soldier was brave enough to accomplish.

He is the perfect American. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

He did what no other American soldier was brave enough to accomplish.

He is the perfect American. :cry:

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Must ... not ... feed ... troll post ...

Gah! I can't resist. Are you seriously proposing that mindless, wanton slaughter of civilians is considered desirable on any level of the American military or American society? Can you back that up in any way whatsoever?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

The Koran burnings were confirmed as an accident, yet severely damaging to our relationship with Afghans.

Now a (insane and possibly drunk) US soldier is accused of murdering 16 civilians, including a two-year-old child. I think we're going to be shown the door pretty quickly.

The gunman, believed to be a lone rogue soldier, went from house to house in two villages in southern Kandahar during the night.

Shooting began at around 3am, according to officials. Among the victims were at least three women, a child aged just two and elderly men.

Neighbours said the soldier had appeared drunk and relatives of the victims claimed chemicals were poured over the dead bodies to burn them. Pictures of the scene appeared to show the remains of burning in at least one of the houses. [...]

The gunman, reported to be an Army staff sergeant, returned to his base after the spree and is said to have turned himself in. US officials have confirmed he is in custody.

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We leave when we want this people have no more ability to "force" us out as we do to impart some sort of civilized behavior upon them.

A disgusting tragedy regardless and a disgrace to us armed forces. This man will suffer the brunt of ucmj and military justice is very strict thankfully.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

We leave when we want this people have no more ability to "force" us out

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Well, they do have a civilian government; we gave it to them. And while I agree that they could not force us out directly, they could make it entirely too absurd and costly for us to stay.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Must ... not ... feed ... troll post ...

Gah! I can't resist. Are you seriously proposing that mindless, wanton slaughter of civilians is considered desirable on any level of the American military or American society? Can you back that up in any way whatsoever?

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That you would speak thus of a saint and hero of America such as this fellow only serves to demonstrate your lack of patriotism.

Why do you want to the evil Afghan Muslim terrorists to dismantle our beautiful nation? You should probably be deported.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Well, they do have a civilian government; we gave it to them. And while I agree that they could not force us out directly, they could make it entirely too absurd and costly for us to stay.

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I said nothing about civilian governments, I referred to civilized behavior. You stretch to compare the corrupt entity they describe as a national government to a functioning civilian government. We are trying to impart 21st century thought upon a population hell bent on remaining within the 1300's.

Frankly, I'm amazed that more don't crack. Driving around every day, trying to help people. Getting shot at and and mates blown to pieces as a "thank you". Years pass and nothing lastingly good has been achieved, merely a load of corrupt politicians line their own pockets and promote their family. I get pissed off enough at people throwing litter into my garden.

End of the day, he's guilty of multiple murder. It looks premeditated. Is that life in prison or executed?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

End of the day, he's guilty of multiple murder. It looks premeditated. Is that life in prison or executed?

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Under the UCMJ, that's most likely a death sentence. There are also provisions for manslaughter and negligent homicide, but very little about extenuating circumstances, of which this man appears to have few.

Don't think the USA will be out of Afghanistan quite so easily, or so quickly. Think Yemen, or Pakistan.

Either way he probably is very much done in Afghanistan, as his mere presence now puts the people around him in danger.

Can't he just quit the army to avoid a court marshal?

All this means is that we need to stay another year to regain the trust of the locals.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Must ... not ... feed ... troll post ...

Gah! I can't resist. Are you seriously proposing that mindless, wanton slaughter of civilians is considered desirable on any level of the American military or American society? Can you back that up in any way whatsoever?

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Not troll, sarcasm. Seriously Lemur, that was pretty obvious. :stare:

Either way it was a horrible thing to do, but I'm not going to guess what the response will be as I'm honestly not sure it will be the same as with the quran burnings.
It's certainly an option of course but this is different from attacking their god. The Taliban blow afghans up and noone protests. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Frankly, I'm amazed that more don't crack. Driving around every day, trying to help people. Getting shot at and and mates blown to pieces as a "thank you". Years pass and nothing lastingly good has been achieved, merely a load of corrupt politicians line their own pockets and promote their family. I get pissed off enough at people throwing litter into my garden...

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Very much so. I am very curious as to what his motivation was, but it wouldn't surprise me if he just went berserk from stress or lost a buddy of his to a "friendly" afghan "ally". We'll just have to wait and see what the investigation unearths.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Can't he just quit the army to avoid a court marshal?

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Then he should be handed over to the Afgans, and probably hanged. Actually, they should do that anyway - but they won't.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Then he should be handed over to the Afgans, and probably hanged. Actually, they should do that anyway - but they won't.

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Of course not. Trying one of our guys in an Afghani kangaroo court? No, thanks.

I've read that it might not be as bad as the Koran burnings. After all, we've been making mistakes like this for years. And I think the Afghans perceive the Taliban as being about as bad as us despite the fact that we've killed far less of them than the Taliban.

A tragedy on both sides of the coin.

The soldier will at least likely receive better "justice" than the kangaroo court that tried a 15 year old Canadian for being a "found-in".

War destroys people and our facade of civility; win or lose there is a cost.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Very much so. I am very curious as to what his motivation was, but it wouldn't surprise me if he just went berserk from stress or lost a buddy of his to a "friendly" afghan "ally". We'll just have to wait and see what the investigation unearths.

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Maybe the family members of the people he killed may also "just" go berserk in response and kill 14 american women and children each and so on.
That would really help the situation.

He should be executed.

The public response will not be as bad as the burnings, which shows how messed up these people are. Afterall, Afghans pop all the time and kill each other and us. A few of the blue on blu shootings of NATO troops have been guys who were lsoing their marbles, like the pilot who offed a room full of afghans and americans, he just went berserk due to personal issues.

What I find amusing is Karzais speed at the annual Womens Day gathering, where he says they do not need foreign troops because their army can stand on its own. Of course, we would still pay their army since the country generates only about 2% of the tax revenue it needs and they have no standardized tax base or collection method.

I am also amused at us handing over the detention facility to the Afghans, because the caveat is that we will continue to provide "logistics support" for it in the coming years, which is fany talk for "we pay for your prison"

I would actually love to see this guy handed over to the Afghans if the miltary justice system deems that he is guilty.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

This sick, disturbed, evil individual deserves the firing squad and I hope he gets it.

If I understand this correctly, it wasn't a mission gone wrong but rather a pre-meditated act by one guy.

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I would agree with the terms sick and disturbed but based on what little I know so far I think that it is a bit of a leap to call him "evil". First off, he gave himself up for punishment opposed to nicking someone else's rifle and doing it. Secondly he "only" killed everyone in two houses. I imagine he could have killed a far greater number if he'd wanted to.

Although it is possible that he joined the army, worked his way up from the ranks in some 10 year strategy to kill two families, but it seems much more likely that he is sick and disturbed by what he's been through.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Secondly he "only" killed everyone in two houses. I imagine he could have killed a far greater number if he'd wanted to.

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https://i.imgur.com/IUSQi.jpg

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Although it is possible that he joined the army, worked his way up from the ranks in some 10 year strategy to kill two families, but it seems much more likely that he is sick and disturbed by what he's been through.

~:smoking:

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Very much possible but it's still possible that it is premeditated, like a revenge for his buddies or something like that.

You can kill our people, but you can't kill our book! :laugh4:

Terrible thing though, regardless of the Afghani priorities. Didn't know they executed soldiers anymore, I thought they just got jailed for some ungodly amount of time instead.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

As a Soldier he would have had constant re-enforcement on what the right thing to do was. He would be asked regularly about his mental state, he would attend constant sensitivity classes, and every single mission briefing would contain something like "please don't hurt the civilians." There is no excuse for not being able to discern right and wrong in this case. Not even a PTSD flashback is excuse enough for this, as he would have had ample opportunities to describe his feelings to someone who could help. The Army doesn't hold your career back for that sort of thing any more, the stigma is not what it used to be.

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He's asked about his mental state. If that is as reliable as the health screening I do, then people... lie - "no sir, not a drop" then presented with end stage liver failure and was dead in 2 weeks.
Awww, sensitivity classes. That makes everything OK... You might as well say that classes to detect Non Accidental Injury in children stops all child abuse.
Please don't hurt the civilians. That stops people who suddenly snap...

Some people talk. Some don't. There are ample ways for people to seek help if they are depressed. That doesn't mean some don't commit suicide. The system might be stopping 99 out of 100 persons who might have done this, but this is that one person who the system didn't catch. It happens. No system is perfect.

I'm not defending him. He did it. Perhaps a very good lawyer will argue temporary insanity and when he realised what he'd done he immediately gave himself up. He not only killed a load of locals, but far more importantly our troops might get injured or killed as a result of this.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Of course not. Trying one of our guys in an Afghani kangaroo court? No, thanks.

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And there it is... reason one why it isn't working over there.

All they'll do is hang him, so why not hand him over?

Nice to know you value his life over the people he killed.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

And there it is... reason one why it isn't working over there.

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I would wager that there are a fair number of much larger issues at play in the failure to make progress in Afghanistan than American stateside arrogance. COIN, for better or worse, is centered on winning over the locals and great efforts have been taken to attain that goal.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

And there it is... reason one why it isn't working over there.

All they'll do is hang him, so why not hand him over?

Nice to know you value his life over the people he killed.

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No I just believe in fair and western justice. He WILL die if found guilty by the military. And he will receive a FAIR trial. If he is tried by the barbarians he will not receive a fair trial and he will die all the same albeit in a more gruesome manner which is completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Ridiculous. You're basically saying that because he didn't take the options he had seriously that his choice is valid? What?

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No... I was stating that those things that are put in place might help. To think that a few classes are going to manage to offset the hell of that country is is, well, ridiculous.

That I can understand what he did does not mean I condone what he did. The validity of what he did surely depends on one's personal stand. I don't think it's valid but then I don't think that the whole enterprise is either.

~:smoking: