No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
No Gun Shogun: a campaign which aims to reject large aspects of FotS' gameplay in a self-admittedly stupid, suicidal bid to hold back the tides of change, and keep Japan locked in the Sengoku. Why? Why not.
This is a game in need of house rules, and I'm hoping people can suggest a few in order to keep it fun. It's going to be less straightforward than I anticipated prior to release.
Background:
When FotS was first announced my reaction was to mutter something about "Don't like guns and pre-modern stuff. Boring. Would much prefer to have another game with swords and melee." Shortly before FotS was released, I saw a few screenshots with samurai in snazzy black and gold traditional armour fighting some modern infantry. "Ah ha!" thought I. "I wonder if it's possible to refuse modernisation? What if I place my destiny where my crazed mutterings are, and stand against the tide in full King Canute fashion? I'll go down in a hail of bullets, but at least I shall be wearing some seriously nice armour when I do!" Then I realised that No Gun Shogun is a catchy title for an AAR, and there we go.
The easy rules:
1. I can only recruit traditional Sengoku units. No line infantry, no artillery, nothing which is obviously modern. Levy infantry are permissible as they are peasants armed with muskets, however they must not form the core of an army. Using them as a main defensive force in a castle is permitted, as that's how I use guns in the Sengoku campaign.
2. I must support the Shogun. I am not allowed to declare war on other Shogunate clans. If they declare war on me, I am permitted to do as I see necessary in order to survive.
3. Agents. I can recruit any type except for the foreign veteran.
4. I will play as the Aizu. Snazzy armour, bonuses to traditional units, natural-born members of the Shogunate - what's not to like?
The parts where I can't decide what to do about rules:
1. Modernisation points. At first I thought it would be easy to keep it at zero. Then I got the game. I now doubt this will be possible for several reasons:
- The economy is tight, samurai units are very expensive, and without a bit of modernisation I will not be able to build up. I think that a degree of leeway will have to be applied to economy.
- Samurai take 2 turns to recruit, and so it will be very hard to recruit any sizeable force if I do not have a good number of recruitment slots. Most slots come from modern military buildings. I'm not sure how feasible it is to limit myself to dojos only. I could allow a few basic modern buildings and then ignore the units they provide ... but that kind of feels like a fuzzy line.
- Research requires modernisation. If I do not modernise a bit I will not get past tier 1, and that means missing out on a lot of economy techs. Also, some techs provide modernisation points. It's easy to draw a line through most of the army techs, but much harder to do the same with the civilian techs. Some, like the tier 3 'tea ceremony', tie in with the traditional campaign nicely.
2. Research. What techs should be acceptable, what should be off-limits.
3. Navies. Even the basic ships are modern. If I play the concept strictly that means I will not be able to have a single navy, full stop. If the AI wakes up and starts sending naval attacks after me, that could be a severe problem. Also, army movement in FotS is pretty slow, and sea transport is one of the cures to that. I may also need to bypass an allied clan blockage if the Shogunate clans expand in the 'wrong' way. However, if I'm messing around with boats, I'll need to keep them competitive with the AI's fleets and that's modernisation. Tricky.
4. Campaign length. I can't decide between short or long. Negative factors being: I'm more likely to survive short, long is more likely to get boring.
5. Ancillaries. Many of the agent and general ancillaries are modern. Should I reject a useful ancillery because it's a modern item, like a British gun? What do I do if I am offered a choice between 2 modern ancillaries?
6. Town buildings. Assuming some modernisation points are allowed, at what point does each family becomes too modern to scape past the rules? Sometimes it is clear, others it is not.
Any ideas? Remember, the aim is fun with the theme whilst surviving for a reasonable amount of time. Dying eventually is acceptable; dying on turn 15 is underwhelming.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
I have been trying to do the same but as you said, there is almost no way to stick the very basic stuff and remain competetive/not get bored out of your mind.
I was thinking of having very basic modern units like levy infantry and boats but reyling ony mostly melee infantry/old cavalary.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
I think it would be most fun/productive if your restrictions on modernness were only on land units, i.e., all tech, buildings, etc., are kosher. That way, swords and bows become a choice ("I could be shooting a gun, but I'm choosing this pointy stick because I'm cool."). I also think you should build railways so your samurai can ride to battle in style.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogbeastegg
The parts where I can't decide what to do about rules:
1. Modernisation points. At first I thought it would be easy to keep it at zero. Then I got the game. I now doubt this will be possible for several reasons:
- The economy is tight, samurai units are very expensive, and without a bit of modernisation I will not be able to build up. I think that a degree of leeway will have to be applied to economy.
- Samurai take 2 turns to recruit, and so it will be very hard to recruit any sizeable force if I do not have a good number of recruitment slots. Most slots come from modern military buildings. I'm not sure how feasible it is to limit myself to dojos only. I could allow a few basic modern buildings and then ignore the units they provide ... but that kind of feels like a fuzzy line.
- Research requires modernisation. If I do not modernise a bit I will not get past tier 1, and that means missing out on a lot of economy techs. Also, some techs provide modernisation points. It's easy to draw a line through most of the army techs, but much harder to do the same with the civilian techs. Some, like the tier 3 'tea ceremony', tie in with the traditional campaign nicely.
2. Research. What techs should be acceptable, what should be off-limits.
3. Navies. Even the basic ships are modern. If I play the concept strictly that means I will not be able to have a single navy, full stop. If the AI wakes up and starts sending naval attacks after me, that could be a severe problem. Also, army movement in FotS is pretty slow, and sea transport is one of the cures to that. I may also need to bypass an allied clan blockage if the Shogunate clans expand in the 'wrong' way. However, if I'm messing around with boats, I'll need to keep them competitive with the AI's fleets and that's modernisation. Tricky.
4. Campaign length. I can't decide between short or long. Negative factors being: I'm more likely to survive short, long is more likely to get boring.
5. Ancillaries. Many of the agent and general ancillaries are modern. Should I reject a useful ancillery because it's a modern item, like a British gun? What do I do if I am offered a choice between 2 modern ancillaries?
6. Town buildings. Assuming some modernisation points are allowed, at what point does each family becomes too modern to scape past the rules? Sometimes it is clear, others it is not.
Any ideas? Remember, the aim is fun with the theme whilst surviving for a reasonable amount of time. Dying eventually is acceptable; dying on turn 15 is underwhelming.
1. Modernize, but keep it on the civil/economic side.
2. Clearly western ideas should be off limits. Anything that could be reasonably expected to have been on the Japanese research menu eventually can be researched.
3. S2 had already naban trade ships and cannon bunes. Ships with wooden hulls and solid shells should be allright.
4. Go for a long campaign. You can always quit if you get bored. You have do redo the campaign if you reach the end without satisfactory result.
5. When having a choice between a traditional and a modern ancillary, always go for the traditional one. When you only have the choice between 2 modern ones, use the Maltz' reload trick until you get a choice.
6. I don't know buildings from the top of my head. Just use common sense.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
Keep the traditional stuff for the land units. Relax the rules a little for navies, economics, retainers and some techs. I'd even go far enough and say all navy units are acceptable as long as you don't use them to bombard anything at all.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
Busy few days. Thanks for the suggestions. :bow:
I think I will permit level 1 of each troop recruitment facility in order to access added recruitment slots. I will never upgrade them to level 2, and never use the units they provide. That seems fair - I can pretend the buildings are stripped out and re-purposed to store rice and yari. ;p
On buildings, I will attempt to avoid factories. If my economy is severely crunched without them then I shall grudgingly build a few. No foreign trading districts or drydocks allowed. Where a resource special offers a choice, I will choose the less modernised option.
I will permit the following military techs: shih, school of shinobi, improved defences, shipyard research. I am undecided about the rest of the mini castle chain - the gatling guns tech improves castle construction times, and unlocks militarised society which provides a boost to morale and campaign movement. Very useful. I might permit it, although in principle the gatling gun tech is Just More Guns(TM), and should be avoided. I might base that decision on the evolving situation; if I have nothing else useful left to research I might take these two techs.
On the economic side, I will avoid these techs: foreign affairs, western agenda. All the others look acceptable.
I am undecided about railways and navies. On the one hand, the gameplay makes it hard to ignore them. On the other, they are a good part of what I dislike about the modern setting. Even the most basic ships use steam engines. If I use them then I'm not rejecting the aspects I find boring ... and if I don't use them then I'm severely crippled. I suppose I shall have to do as suggested, and use them in a cavalier fashion.
No castle tower upgrades permitted beyond matchlock towers. No castle upgrades permitted beyond citadel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peasant Phill
5. When having a choice between a traditional and a modern ancillary, always go for the traditional one. When you only have the choice between 2 modern ones, use the Maltz' reload trick until you get a choice.
Maltz has so many tricks it's a wonder he can squeeze his arms into his sleeves! I'm not sure I have seen this particular one. Can you give a brief recap, or link me to the topic?
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogbeastegg
No castle tower upgrades permitted beyond matchlock towers.
This will not be a hardship. I did some testing of the various tower upgrades, and they're nothing to write home about. Even the cannon tower upgrade has a laughably short range and a go-make-some-soup long reload time. Seeing as they consume a precious construction slot, I'd say they are completely worth a miss.
The star fort, on the other hand, is a thing of beauty.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogbeastegg
Maltz has so many tricks it's a wonder he can squeeze his arms into his sleeves! I'm not sure I have seen this particular one. Can you give a brief recap, or link me to the topic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maltz
Retainers are randomly generated at the experience gaining event
This means that you don't get a new set of retainer choices if you simply make a game save after the general or agent levels up. You have to make the save before the last battle/mission. Now since you keep loading the same save to carry out the level-up mission, you will always get the same outcome.
I've looked it up and I was wrong. Unless you want to refight battles, retainers will be the same at every reload.
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
One of the guys at RPS did something like this, but it looks like he didn't have a great time of it/didn't know what he was doing: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/...f-the-samurai/
Re: No Gun Shogun - creating the rules for a campaign of suicidal traditionalism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
quadalpha
Gah! RPS is on my daily reading list; these last few weeks I've been offline quite a bit and haven't read much. Look what happens when my watchful gaze is averted! I should send my internet lawyers over at once! Also ninja! And assassin geisha!
I'm intending to start my campaign soon. Just need to do a few things first, like get my helmet lacquered.
