Dick Lugar Out Of The Senate

I guess I missed the part where Indiana annexed Northern VA.

One of the best forigen policy minds of the past 40 years is about to be replaced with an uncomprimising fool. Solid.

But he wasn't a Tea Party conservative. How could we trust him to stop big government?

That's a crying shame. He did a lot of good work on nuclear proliferation and our (messed up) relationship with Pakistan. Another moderate bites the dust.

If we would repeal the 17th, we wouldn't have to put up with stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by drone

If we would repeal the 17th, we wouldn't have to put up with stuff like this.

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Why would we give our power back to the government? Screw that.

I was going to write something but then realized he has me on ignore.

If someone wants to hold his hand through Montisqeu, Madison, and the difference between 2 and 6 years I'd be much obliged

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Originally Posted by rvg

Why would we give our power back to the government? Screw that.

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The Senate was never intended to represent the people, it's supposed to represent the states. The 17th has been key in centralizing power in the federal government.

I agree on the fact that Dick Lugar was a damn fine senator!! I also agree with Drone on the repeal of the 17th amendment. The biggest stumbling block would be whether a man could buy his way to the senate, but, isn't that what happens now?

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Originally Posted by drone

If we would repeal the 17th, we wouldn't have to put up with stuff like this.

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Random observation: when post-war Germany was being rebuilt, west Germany adopted a constitution with a bi-cameral assembly in which one chamber (the Bundesrat, or Senate if you will) held a very large sway over the federal government. By and large, the same setup endures to this day, and with great success. Allthough it had historical precedent one of the reasons west-Germany was so "federal" was because the USA insisted that it would be that way - they thought it would be a good garantue against Prussian dominance, authoritarianism, and a load of other bad things.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

That's a crying shame. He did a lot of good work on nuclear proliferation and our (messed up) relationship with Pakistan. Another moderate bites the dust.

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He's also been in office longer than I've been alive and no longer bothered to live in the state that he nominally represented. I think it might have been time for a fresh face. Also, I doubt you'd lament his ouster if he was unseated by a Democrat. :wink:

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Originally Posted by drone

The Senate was never intended to represent the people, it's supposed to represent the states. The 17th has been key in centralizing power in the federal government.

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Get the petition started- I'll sign.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

He's also been in office longer than I've been alive and no longer bothered to live in the state that he nominally represented. I think it might have been time for a fresh face. Also, I doubt you'd lament his ouster if he was unseated by a Democrat. :wink:

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The fewer moderates we have in the Senate, the more dysfunctional it'll get. I can totally see the day when the Senate will be unable to function unless one of the parties holds a supermajority.

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Originally Posted by rvg

The fewer moderates we have in the Senate, the more dysfunctional it'll get. I can totally see the day when the Senate will be unable to function unless one of the parties holds a supermajority.

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Sounds good. The less functional it is, the less damage it can do. Too bad it didn't happen before Obamacare was passed.

Don't get me wrong, there are problems (long-term entitlement spending) that the federal government needs to address- I just don't have any confidence that it will do so. Any attempts at "reform" so far have only made things worse instead of better.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Sounds good. The less functional it is, the less damage it can do. Too bad it didn't happen before Obamacare was passed.

Don't get me wrong, there are problems (long-term entitlement spending) that the federal government needs to address- I just don't have any confidence that it will do so. Any attempts at "reform" so far have only made things worse instead of better.

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So, the US should follow California?

Creating a stale into a slow death is usually not a good solution.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

So, the US should follow California?

Creating a stale into a slow death is usually not a good solution.

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Between the two, I prefer coasting slowly towards a cliff rather than with a foot jammed on the gas pedal.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Between the two, I prefer coasting slowly towards a cliff rather than with a foot jammed on the gas pedal.

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Seeing how we probably won't be able to afford gas in the next few years, I don't really see a difference. :no:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

If the only two choices are "Long and slow stagnation" and "Quick and painful destruction" then shouldn't we be looking for a third alternative, rather than picking from one of two horrible options?

The entire system needs revamping, and the entire political spectrum needs to be made sense of. Tear it all down and start again.

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That would require actually electing people who have the fortitude and ability to make those necessary changes. In case you hadn't noticed, all of our politicians are corrupt as all get out. Good luck with that and all.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

That would require actually electing people who have the fortitude and ability to make those necessary changes. In case you hadn't noticed, all of our politicians are corrupt as all get out. Good luck with that and all.

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Well, not all of them. McCain seems like a very decent guy.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Well, not all of them. McCain seems like a very decent guy.

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I give him respect and credit for what he endured while serving in the armed forces. Politically it's a different story. Embarrassing fact of the day: I once thought Cheney was a half decent bloke.

I would vote for Colin Powell.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

A decent guy and a proud veteran, but a bad Politician.

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In this day and age that's practically a compliment.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

I once thought Cheney was a half decent bloke.

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If Biden were half the man that Cheney is...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I would agree if it weren't for his specific kind of bad. He's easily influenced, and he thinks the neo-cons and tea-partiers are his friends. He's not a "reform the system for the better" kind of guy. The moment he picked Sara Palin as his running mate, it was obvious where his loyalties were.

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He took a risk and it backfired. As for Palin, a veep can only do what the pres allows him to do. I suspect that had McCain won in 2008, Palin would be stuck breaking an occasional tie in the Senate and posing for photo ops (she'd be perfect for that).

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

The Vice President's office shouldn't be offered to a complete incompetent (a partisan and divisive incompetent, actually) just to satisfy the worst elements of your base. That just says "I care more about winning than trying to follow my political vision" which usually also means "I care more about making my donors happy than I do about upholding any kind of political platform." That's the problem with both parties, actually, but Republicans are the worst offendors.

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Yes. After John Danforth "Potatoe" Quayle it's a sin to demonize Sarah Palin or to belittle her intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

She could be stupid and still be a valid candidate. What makes her incompetent are the things that come out of her mouth. They make no sense. Doesn't mean she's stupid (and she probably is), but it does mean she's a bad choice.

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She a genius compared to Dan Quayle. And Dan Quayle managed to spend his four years as a veep without doing any major damage to the country.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Just because that kid over there got away with it doesn't mean you can get away with it too! Its this immature "Well, they did it too!" excuse that has allowed both parties to get so equally terrible.

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What I'm saying is that a veep choice hardly matters at all. I mean, look at the current clown in that office.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Many would argue that Biden was highly qualified for the job, and has done pretty well for himself. But that's beside the point: The Vice President is the next-in-line if the president dies. He or She should be totally competent. Just because many presidents (perhaps even Obama, in your point of view) have chosen bad veeps before does not mean you should let someone off the hook when they choose a bad one. It does matter.

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It matters, but not nearly as much as some present it to be. I could respond to this further, but it's much more fun to let Dan Quayle (my favorite veep of all time) do the talking. In no particular order....

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"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared.'"

"Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts."

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit . . . Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy -- but that could change."

"Add one little bit on the end... Think of 'potato', how's it spelled? You're right phonetically, but what else...? There ya' go... all right!" --"correcting" a student's correct spelling of the word "potato" during a spelling bee at an elementary school (he told the student to add an "e" at the end

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

"The future will be better tomorrow."

"We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican."

"I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."

"It's wonderful to be here in the great state of Chicago."

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."

"When I have been asked during these last weeks who caused the riots and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame."

"Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."

"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."

"The American people would not want to know of any misquotes that Dan Quayle may or may not make."

"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I lol'd.

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As did I.

For the record, Palin was a showstopper reason that I voted dem in 08.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

As did I.

For the record, Palin was a showstopper reason that I voted dem in 08.

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Clearly Biden was the better alternative:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"I promise you, the president has a big stick. I promise you." --Joe Biden, citing Theodore Roosevelt's famous quote, "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." (April 26, 2012)

"This is a big ******* deal!" --Joe Biden, caught on an open mic congratulating President Barack Obama during the health care signing ceremony, Washington, D.C., March 23, 2010

"His mom lived in Long Island for ten years or so. God rest her soul. And- although, she's- wait- your mom's still- your mom's still alive. Your dad passed. God bless her soul." --Joe Biden, on the mother of Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen, who is very much alive, Washington, D.C., March 17, 2010

"I wouldn't go anywhere in confined places now. … When one person sneezes it goes all the way through the aircraft. That's me. I would not be, at this point, if they had another way of transportation, suggesting they ride the subway." --Joe Biden, providing handy tips to protect against the swine flu and freaking us out, "Today Show" interview, April 30, 2009

"An hour late, oh give me a f**king break." –Joe Biden, caught on a live mic speaking to a former Senate colleague after arriving on Amtrak at Union Station in Washington, D.C., March 13, 2009

"You know, I'm embarrassed. Do you know the Web site number? I should have it in front of me and I don't. I'm actually embarrassed." –Joe Biden, speaking to an aide standing out of view during an interview on CBS' "Early Show," in the midst of encouraging viewers to visit a government-run Web site that tracks stimulus spending, Feb. 25, 2009

"If we do everything right, if we do it with absolute certainty, there's still a 30% chance we're going to get it wrong." --Joe Biden, speaking to members of the House Democratic caucus who were gathered in Williamsburg, Va., for their annual retreat, Feb. 6, 2009

"Am I doing this again? For the senior staff? My memory is not as good as Chief Justice Roberts'." --Joe Biden, mocking Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts' botched effort to swear in Barack Obama as Biden was set to swear in White House senior staff one day after the Inauguration snafu, Washington, D.C., Jan. 21, 2009

"Jill and I had the great honor of standing on that stage, looking across at one of the great justices, Justice Stewart." –Joe Biden, mistakenly referring to Justice John Paul Stevens, who swore him in as vice president, Washington, D.C., Jan. 20, 2009

"Look, John's last-minute economic plan does nothing to tackle the number-one job facing the middle class, and it happens to be, as Barack says, a three-letter word: jobs. J-O-B-S, jobs." --Joe Biden, Athens, Ohio, Oct. 15, 2008
"When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened." –Joe Biden, apparently unaware that FDR wasn't president when the stock market crashed in 1929 and that only experimental TV sets were in use at that time, interview with Katie Couric, Sept. 22, 2008

"Stand up, Chuck, let 'em see ya." –-Joe Biden, to Missouri state Sen. Chuck Graham, who is in a wheelchair, Columbia, Missouri, Sept. 12, 2008

"Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Quite frankly, it might have been a better pick than me." --Joe Biden, speaking at a town hall meeting in Nashua, New Hampshire, Sept. 10, 2008

"A man I'm proud to call my friend. A man who will be the next President of the United States — Barack America!" --Joe Biden, at his first campaign rally with Barack Obama after being announced as his running mate, Springfield, Ill., Aug. 23, 2008

"A successful dump!" --Joe Biden, explaining his whereabouts (dropping deadwood at the dump) to the reporters outside his home, Wilmington, Del., Aug. 20, 2008

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." –Joe Biden, referring to Barack Obama at the beginning of the 2008 Democratic primary campaign, Jan. 31, 2007

"You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.... I'm not joking." --Joe Biden, in a private remark to an Indian-American man caught on C-SPAN, June, 2006

:yes:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Clearly Biden was the better alternative:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"I promise you, the president has a big stick. I promise you." --Joe Biden, citing Theodore Roosevelt's famous quote, "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." (April 26, 2012)

"This is a big ******* deal!" --Joe Biden, caught on an open mic congratulating President Barack Obama during the health care signing ceremony, Washington, D.C., March 23, 2010

"His mom lived in Long Island for ten years or so. God rest her soul. And- although, she's- wait- your mom's still- your mom's still alive. Your dad passed. God bless her soul." --Joe Biden, on the mother of Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen, who is very much alive, Washington, D.C., March 17, 2010

"I wouldn't go anywhere in confined places now. … When one person sneezes it goes all the way through the aircraft. That's me. I would not be, at this point, if they had another way of transportation, suggesting they ride the subway." --Joe Biden, providing handy tips to protect against the swine flu and freaking us out, "Today Show" interview, April 30, 2009

"An hour late, oh give me a f**king break." –Joe Biden, caught on a live mic speaking to a former Senate colleague after arriving on Amtrak at Union Station in Washington, D.C., March 13, 2009

"You know, I'm embarrassed. Do you know the Web site number? I should have it in front of me and I don't. I'm actually embarrassed." –Joe Biden, speaking to an aide standing out of view during an interview on CBS' "Early Show," in the midst of encouraging viewers to visit a government-run Web site that tracks stimulus spending, Feb. 25, 2009

"If we do everything right, if we do it with absolute certainty, there's still a 30% chance we're going to get it wrong." --Joe Biden, speaking to members of the House Democratic caucus who were gathered in Williamsburg, Va., for their annual retreat, Feb. 6, 2009

"Am I doing this again? For the senior staff? My memory is not as good as Chief Justice Roberts'." --Joe Biden, mocking Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts' botched effort to swear in Barack Obama as Biden was set to swear in White House senior staff one day after the Inauguration snafu, Washington, D.C., Jan. 21, 2009

"Jill and I had the great honor of standing on that stage, looking across at one of the great justices, Justice Stewart." –Joe Biden, mistakenly referring to Justice John Paul Stevens, who swore him in as vice president, Washington, D.C., Jan. 20, 2009

"Look, John's last-minute economic plan does nothing to tackle the number-one job facing the middle class, and it happens to be, as Barack says, a three-letter word: jobs. J-O-B-S, jobs." --Joe Biden, Athens, Ohio, Oct. 15, 2008
"When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened." –Joe Biden, apparently unaware that FDR wasn't president when the stock market crashed in 1929 and that only experimental TV sets were in use at that time, interview with Katie Couric, Sept. 22, 2008

"Stand up, Chuck, let 'em see ya." –-Joe Biden, to Missouri state Sen. Chuck Graham, who is in a wheelchair, Columbia, Missouri, Sept. 12, 2008

"Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Quite frankly, it might have been a better pick than me." --Joe Biden, speaking at a town hall meeting in Nashua, New Hampshire, Sept. 10, 2008

"A man I'm proud to call my friend. A man who will be the next President of the United States — Barack America!" --Joe Biden, at his first campaign rally with Barack Obama after being announced as his running mate, Springfield, Ill., Aug. 23, 2008

"A successful dump!" --Joe Biden, explaining his whereabouts (dropping deadwood at the dump) to the reporters outside his home, Wilmington, Del., Aug. 20, 2008

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." –Joe Biden, referring to Barack Obama at the beginning of the 2008 Democratic primary campaign, Jan. 31, 2007

"You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.... I'm not joking." --Joe Biden, in a private remark to an Indian-American man caught on C-SPAN, June, 2006

:yes:

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"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." –Joe Biden, referring to Barack Obama at the beginning of the 2008 Democratic primary campaign, Jan. 31, 2007

This is the first one that should have given everyone a clue.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

This is the first one that should have given everyone a clue.

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Unlike Palin or Quayle, Biden has made for excellent Onion articles.