Total War: Thureos

Still in my first real campaign as Sparta, I've noticed that thureos/eliptical shielded units are everywhere.

From EB I knew the Greeks had taken up the thureos in a big way during this time period so nice to find Thureos Spears & Thorax Swords around Greece & Successor areas :yes:
But I hadn't expected them to be quite so prevalent.

First surprise was my Spartan Periokoi Spears: at first I assumed from the name that they would be a light spear unit much like the Spartan Youths & stayed away but then I tried them out & found them a pretty sweet thureos & linothorax spear unit.
I've been playing with 3 main army types: Hoplite main line with mostly Periokoi Hoplites with Spartan/Royal Spartans holding flanks.
Pike phalanx with varying numbers of pike + Spartan/Royal Spartans &/or Periokoi Spears holding flanks.
Those worked pretty well & I found the Periokoi Spears to do well so I have also been using several armies with main line being entirely Periokoi Spears too & quite successfully at that.


Anyway, in my campaigning around the map there has been a great variety of enemies but with one constant: Thureos/oval shields everywhere.
Greek type Peltasts at this time had oval shields, a bit smaller than the thureos but similar shape.
The Greeks got the thureos from the Gauls so no surprise to see them plentiful in Gallic areas.
Dacians & Thracians have their own types too, some pretty tough.
Spain is well renowned for their oval shielded infantry & is also heavily Gaul influenced so no surprise to find plenty of thureos in Spain. (though I've not yet gone over there)
Carthage is believed to have taken up the thureos while fighting in Spain so no surprise to see a decent number of thureos units in their armies both the lower level Libyan & the tough Thorax Sword type Africans.
Numidia & other African nomad types also have oval shield units, fairly light though.
But wait, there is more! In the North we have Nomadic Spears in the thureos style.
And in the East the Eastern Spears also thureos style & factions like Pontus, Media & Parthia make heavy use of thureos/thorax units.
Several of the Near Eastern/Successor states were said to have used 'Roman style' infantry, though this was probably more likely the thureos types which actually predate 'Roman style' so we have Thorax Swords, Royal Guards etc in these places.

Literally everywhere on the map there are Thureos units in plenty.


I have seen people complain about AI armies full of levies but I'm not seeing that at all.
While there have been some full of levies I found many armies heavily loaded with reasonably tough thureos & very tough thorax type units and I found them pretty tough, to the point I wound up actively avoiding having to fight them.

Particularly difficult has been Parthia & Parthava factions who had a bunch of stacks with both a bunch of tough cavalry & ranged units but also lots of Thorax Swords.
When fighting them I took heavy losses, often failed to eliminate stacks & had to retreat to friendly territory to recover.
I lacked enough concentrated force to contain them when they went off rampaging through neighbouring regions & actually wound up making peace with Parthava in order to buy time to raise more armies & have others finish securing their areas so that I could concentrate several armies & finish them off.

So in summary: Thureos spear units are solid & everywhere, Thorax units are pretty tough & armies loaded with them are very dangerous.
As far as I understand the history, this is good and appropriate :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by hoom

I have seen people complain about AI armies full of levies but I'm not seeing that at all.

Particularly difficult has been Parthia & Parthava factions who had a bunch of stacks with both a bunch of tough cavalry & ranged units but also lots of Thorax Swords.
When fighting them I took heavy losses, often failed to eliminate stacks & had to retreat to friendly territory to recover.
I lacked enough concentrated force to contain them when they went off rampaging through neighbouring regions & actually wound up making peace with Parthava in order to buy time to raise more armies & have others finish securing their areas so that I could concentrate several armies & finish them off.

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I see levy units early in the game but if the AI has the time they start training better troops.

My Spartan campaign really bogged down in the middle east. Those land-locked provinces are so big you really need a couple of armies working together (main army and backup). You also need lots of agents scouting ahead. I made the mistake of spreading my armies out too much and now I'm waiting for reinforcements (I build all my armies in Hellas).

And yes, those armies with Thorax units and horsies are tough (slingers are a pain, too). I found I didn't have nearly enough cavalry in my armies.
I haven't used the Thureos spears much - my main armies have been a general, 3 spartan units (pike or hoplite), a couple of cav, and the rest are missile and Periokoi units (hoplite or pike). That setup worked great until I went after the Seleucids and their satrapies. And to make matters worse, you can't negotiate with the satrapies, even after you've eliminated the Seleucids (I'm presuming it's a bug). The satrapies are now like terminators:

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It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

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~:)

I'll have to try out the thureos units.

I am actually wondering if Sword Units actually have an advantage over Spear Units, or are these equally treated as Inf vs Inf in Rome II?

I started a Campaign with Epirus after having played with Rome, and they have no Sword Units at all, will that be a disadvantage?

I like the distinction between Hoplite Phalanx and Pike Phalanx too in the game.

However, neither seems to be holding Formation if Ordered to Attack...(I am hoping this is something that will be fixed down the line)...

And finally is there a difference between Thureos Spears and Thureos Hoplites?

Stat wise it seems like Thureos Spears have very high Defense capabilities.

Melee infantry is better at killing other infantry than spear infantry is, unless you are Romans. In that case, your melee infantry is the answer to any and everything that isn't an elephant.

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Originally Posted by Suraknar

However, neither seems to be holding Formation if Ordered to Attack...(I am hoping this is something that will be fixed down the line)...

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I've been selecting my pikes/hoplites, putting them in phalanx, and right-click dragging them to a location behind the enemy (you have to then tell pikes not to run).
That works wonders in cities/settlements and fairly well in the field.
I just wish the AI would do something similar. The AI never seems to be interested in keeping a battle line.

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Originally Posted by Suraknar

... I started a Campaign with Epirus after having played with Rome, and they have no Sword Units at all, will that be a disadvantage?...

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Here's a tip about Epirus; They (and Macedon) have one of the most versatile units in the game. Aspis Companion Cavalry are stone cold killers, mounted or not! They can stand toe-to-toe with Oathsworn (as long as the numbers are even - so x2 units for 160) and win more often than not. They're absolutely top dog melee units! Kopis swords slice and dice, aspis shields, good armor and their discipline give them incredible staying power, and they even carry a couple javelins. Once you build up your MIC to level 4 so you can recruit them you will no longer have any concern over not having elite swordsman. In fortified settlement assaults I dismount them and send them into the streets to make quick work of any opposition!


In the early game Hellenic Royal Guards are killers with sarrisa or sword, you can use them as elite swordsman in a pinch and they come 'free' as your general's unit. Since Citizen Cavalry are actually quite capable and can fulfill most of your horsie needs, you can opt to hold off on Hellenic Royal Cavalry as your gen's unit until you can recruit aspis companions.

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First surprise was my Spartan Periokoi Spears: at first I assumed from the name that they would be a light spear unit much like the Spartan Youths & stayed away but then I tried them out & found them a pretty sweet thureos & linothorax spear unit.

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Just as an histotical note, there were 3 types of inhabitans in ancient Lacedemona, the land owned by the Spartans.
There were the pureblood Spartans caled "omioi" meaning ecuals, who were living in the citi of Sparti, and who were the spartan citizens taking part in decision making and having the renown spartan lifetime training, without any other profecion but war.
There were the periikoi, which means "those who live around the city" and were freemen and the inhabitans of Lacedemona being the farmers, sheperds, metalworkers, etc, without being citizens and have a voice in decision making but they were trained for war by spartan officers, taking part ones in a year in the long exercises of the army.
And finaly, the majority of the population, the helots, who were slaves, doing all the hard work and being the servants of the Spartans.
Now when the army was campaigning outside Lacedemona, the composition of the phalanx was 1/10 Spartan omioi, 9/10 Periikoi and a large number of helots who were attending their masters, their weapons, and all their needs, while during the battle they were taking part as javelinmen.
So in reality, the pure spartan element of the ancient spartan armies was very small.
The bigest pureblood Spartan army that marched outside Lacedemona was in 479 B.C. at the battle of Plataea, where 8,000 Spartan omioi, almost the whole of the Spartan citizenry at the time, was part of a 30,000 men Lacedemonian army, the rest periikoi and hellots.
As for the Periikoi, they were hoplites more or less in the standards of every other Hellenic army of the time.
This means that a periikoi phalanx was a normal hoplite opponent for any other Hellenic phalanx to overcome, the difference being that, on the right side of the periikoi, the place of honnor for the phalanx, were the spartan contigent.
So when the phalanxes were engaged, naturaly the extreme left side of the opponent couldnt withstand the presure of the spartans and were breaking, then the spartans were wealing their phalanx facing left, were the periikoi were holding the line and striking the rest of the opponents phalanx from the unprotected flank, so end of the battle.

QUOTE]I am actually wondering if Sword Units actually have an advantage over Spear Units, or are these equally treated as Inf vs Inf in Rome II?[/QUOTE]
Historicaly sword armed infantry coud not overcome pike units face to face, and under circumstances spear phalanx, as long as the phalanx is well trained and dont loose cohesion.

The problem was that the phalanxes flanks had to be well protected, since they didnt have manuverability, to face a threat from the flanks by rapidly turn face.

The best exambles are the battles between Roman manipular legions and the Macedonian army during 3rd C.B.C. two macedonian wars, where the Romans could never hold against the frontal assault of the pike phalanx but they were able to flank the macedonians in all occasions and by that they won.

So keep the pikes low and firm and protect the flanks.

Yes I'm aware of the 3 classes & that majority of the armies were periokoi.

I'm also aware that Spartan armies held with the hoplite style longer than the rest of Greece who migrated to Macedonian style phalanx & then the Thureos style.
They did eventually experiment with Macedonian style phalanx later but got smacked down quickly & didn't have the numbers of homioi to sustain by then.

What I hadn't expected was to find good thureos type units in the Spartan roster.

QUOTE]Yes I'm aware of the 3 classes & that majority of the armies were periokoi[/QUOTE].

My apologies, didnt understand your query.

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What I hadn't expected was to find good thureos type units in the Spartan roster

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As for that, you are right, as for the addoption of thureos shield in greece, perhaps some troops in limmited numbers in Sparta used them, since by the time Sparta also used mercenaries, ( cape Mainalon south of Sparta was for a time mercenary recruitement center), because of their decline as a millitary power, but otherwise i also havent read about such troops in Sparta.

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Originally Posted by nearchos

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Yes I'm aware of the 3 classes & that majority of the armies were periokoi

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My apologies, didnt understand your query.



As for that, you are right, as for the addoption of thureos shield in greece, perhaps some troops in limmited numbers in Sparta used them, since by the time Sparta also used mercenaries, ( cape Mainalon south of Sparta was for a time mercenary recruitement center), because of their decline as a millitary power, but otherwise i also havent read about such troops in Sparta.

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It appears that Thueros armed infantry appeared half a century after the start of the game as a evolution of the lighter infantry types that had arisen due to the Greek economy making it difficult for the average citizen militiaman/soldier to arm themselves in the old hoplite kit(on and off warfare for two straight centuries tends to do that). Its another experiment in adapting cheaper to arm peltast/skirmisher types with heavier weapons to perform a more heavy infantry role similar to how the Macedonians developed the phalanx on the cheap.

Source: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates2.html