Consolidating Italy as Rome

I have to admit, I'm a bit flustered at my apparent inability to establish the basis of a Roman Empire. I'm playing a Normal Grand Campaign as Junii, using Radious campaign mod and with every start as Rome, I encounter the same problem in the first 10-20 turns:

- I take Velathri(sp?) and Ariminum from the Etruscans
- I need to leave my (usually 2-3) legions on Italy mainland to prevent surpise landings by Etruscan armies sent from Corsica
- I can't manage to send a sizeable fleet/force to Corsica to mop up, as there is always some Etruscan army threatening my Italian city
- While I try to swat these flies, the Veneti or Carthage declare war. Often both.
- Now I'm also dealing with one or two sizeable Venetian and Cathaginian armies threatening my Italian cities.
- I'm forced on the defensive, I can't eliminate either faction, I'm slowly overwhelmed.
- Arrrgh.

How do you people deal with this? Diplomacy doesn't really help - I'm usually on Trade(Nonagression with Syracuse, Sparta, Athens and the Illyrian coast, but for the life of me, I cannot eliminate the Etruskans quickly enough to focus on Veneti or Carthage.

Any help for a would-be emperor is appreciated! :)

Turtle until you get to Cohort Organization. With leginaires and Socii Equites Extraordinarii you will have an army advantage. Don't skimp on the Veites versus the Venetii stacks, otherwise their skirmishers will murder you. Eliminate the Etruscans eraly on. 3 fire ships and 3 assault ships are all the navy you neeed in conjunction with a fullstack of Hastati and Veites to sail to Sardinia and take it. Attempt to manipulate a war between Syracuse and Carthage (if it doesn't spark up on its own). It might be worth it to get a devensive alliance with Syracuse if you can't dig yourself out of this hole.

The Venetii must be stomped and gutted. You can't really go against their 2 armies without legionnaires or at least a lot of principes IMO. I haven't tried setting an ambush for them. It might make sense to go down that route. Also, assassinate their general - that barbarian cav unit will do some serious work if left unanswered (unless you have twice the number of SEE units to their cav units)

Simple answer, don't bother trying to do that in the first 20 turns. Play the long game. It takes me 40 or more turns to that in my campaigns. Carthage gets knocked out by one of the Iberian or Numidian tribes eventually. The Etruscan league with just Corsica will eventually run out of food and whither away. Defend the boot below the Po valley. Ally with Syracuse (which is easy) and the Gallic tribes in the north (this might be harder, settle for a non aggression pact). It's only a double cross if you attack inside 25 turns. :eyebrows: I can take all of Italy with no cohort organization and no Socii units. Just what ever comes out of a manipular barracks.

The campaign is a marathon not a sprint.

What's your Legion's orbat?

My pure (pre-Marian) Roman legion is:
Triarii general
4x Velites
4x Hastati
4x Prncepes
2x Triarii
2x Equites

This is a very useful orbat, as long as it's used like the bludgeoning meat grinder it was designed to be.

I don't get it why people are so opposed to using the marian troops until some arbitrary point they no longer deem them unfair. It's in the game, might as well use it. The Gauls will come at you wtih Othsworn and the Egyptians will field Thorax Pikemen, so I don't see the issue for the game as it is right now. Sure, I'd like to get timed Marian reforms and similar events, but since we don't have them now and the game is balanced for this tech tree, I see nothing wrong with using them.

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Originally Posted by Myth

I don't get it why people are so opposed to using the marian troops until some arbitrary point they no longer deem them unfair.

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Because we don't play to win, we play for fun. We want to recreate history or write our own. Rushing to Marian troops also means variety is left out of the game, and variety is fun. If you rush Marian troops, then your stuck with them for the rest of the game.

CA really needs to address this.

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Originally Posted by Myth

I don't get it why people are so opposed to using the marian troops until some arbitrary point they no longer deem them unfair. It's in the game, might as well use it. The Gauls will come at you wtih Othsworn and the Egyptians will field Thorax Pikemen, so I don't see the issue for the game as it is right now. Sure, I'd like to get timed Marian reforms and similar events, but since we don't have them now and the game is balanced for this tech tree, I see nothing wrong with using them.

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Because we want to use them, duh. Thorax units aren't that super awesome vs pre-Marian units. It takes some doing but it's possible. Plus Oathsworn aren't that common in the first 50 turns.

Never go out without siege weapons. They're your best friends.

Thanks for all your suggestions! Last night I finally managed to establish a solid foothold. The recipe for success was not autoresolving these huge Barbarian battles vs. the Veneti! I was surprised that two or three battles that looked impossible (outnumbered 2:1) actually turned out to be a decisive victory for me, with 3/4 of my Legion still intact. So after a few very bloody turns, the Veneti had no sizeable army left, while I could go on the offensive and raze Patavium to the ground. Meanwhile, my ally Syracuse kept Carthage at bay and my fleet managed to deter the Etruscans from invading. Hah!

I find the use of pre-Marian troops to be quite effective - and it adds diversity and interest to the game. My standard setup is a 9-unit Roman core (3 Principes, 3 Hastati, 1 Trairii, 1 Velites, 1 Equites). I can combine two of these into a full legion or augment it with Auxilliary troops to save costs. Haven't gotten to siege weapons yet, but I'll be sure to try them out.

The autoresolve thing is broken and kind of has been since the release of the game. Don't trust it unless it says you are winning =p

I've had both factions attack me, or do a DOW, in several campaigns, but it's not been that much of a problem getting past them - as long as they are they only two you are dealing with.

I play on hard, no Mods, and will focus on building up my economy the first 10 to 15 turns while taking out the Etruscans. I build up Legio I to around 16 units, Legio II to 10 units and start Legio III in Rome, around 8 units. I also build up the Classis I fleet to 6 or so units. Legio I and Classis I take out the Etruscans then moves back to North Italy by turn 7 or 8. The fleet stays on Sardinia.

If Carthage attacks during this time Legio II is strong enough to take on most anything coming their way, especially if reinforced by a city garrison. Since it's the early part of the game all units are basic.

Legio II in Rome is strong enough, again with city garrison support, to defend Rome and Naples from seaborne attack.

As long as Greece doesn't decide to jump into the mix you're OK. Gets "interesting" very quick if they want a piece of the action early on.

:)

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

I find the use of pre-Marian troops to be quite effective - and it adds diversity and interest to the game. My standard setup is a 9-unit Roman core (3 Principes, 3 Hastati, 1 Trairii, 1 Velites, 1 Equites). I can combine two of these into a full legion or augment it with Auxilliary troops to save costs. Haven't gotten to siege weapons yet, but I'll be sure to try them out.

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Ave, moonshiner.

I applaud your use of proper manipular legions. It sounds like you play TW games the same way I do. Creating an army that performs and behaves in a manner consistent with history (as best we can know it) adds to the fun. My own biggest complaints over the years have arisen when CA’s units won’t allow for this. For example, where is the corvus in the Roman navy? Still, CA gets things done well enough.

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

I have to admit, I'm a bit flustered at my apparent inability to establish the basis of a Roman Empire. I'm playing a Normal Grand Campaign as Junii, using Radious campaign mod and with every start as Rome, I encounter the same problem in the first 10-20 turns:

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I also started to play as Rome/Junii. I dont have any mods.

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

- I take Velathri(sp?) and Ariminum from the Etruscans

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Do this in 6-7 turns. Recruit Hashati & Velite before and after conquering. Get rid of the basic units; for example they can soak up enemy javelins before dispanded. Dont sit around waiting units to heal up; If units die they die.

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

- I need to leave my (usually 2-3) legions on Italy mainland to prevent surpise landings by Etruscan armies sent from Corsica

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I used the northern "Italica" legion to attack Etruscans and kept the southern "Gemina" legion in the last/southmost town in Italy.

I recruited 3rd legion when I moved 1st to kill Etruscans to Korsika.
I recruited 4th legion when I moved 2nd to kill those Greeks in Sicily.

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

- I can't manage to send a sizeable fleet/force to Corsica to mop up, as there is always some Etruscan army threatening my Italian city

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The key is to move so fast that they wont have time to bring even half stack to the sea before you are allready at the gates. Use your fleet to hit the 1-3 units trying to cross the sea.

I actually surrounded their harbor with fleet of 5 ships; the streights where about 3% vs 97% to them. But when I did that I swinged my italica legion to shore. They offcourse attacked me on the sea. I sunk their general and 2 other ships, lost 3 ships myself and then fled the scene. (Kindoff hit and run tactic). And then next turn; I hit em with full stack from the land side and that was the last of Etruscans. (Crossing the sea takes more turns than the fight; I'd say 4-5 turns and then 1-2 to fight.)

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

- While I try to swat these flies, the Veneti or Carthage declare war. Often both.

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Veneti never wardecced me. I attacked veneti and took their capital when they whent over the sea to fight with illyrians. They sued for peace. I'm not sure about Carthage; I attacked them in sicily and then on that island under korsica at the same time.

I spend lots of effort to the grande finale of destroying Carthage (city) but I ended up autorolling it because the defence was so weak. (I had both legions surrounding it.)

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

- Now I'm also dealing with one or two sizeable Venetian and Cathaginian armies threatening my Italian cities.
- I'm forced on the defensive, I can't eliminate either faction, I'm slowly overwhelmed.
- Arrrgh.

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I'd take Carthage out. Cisalpine is real pain. I had arveni in genua, i took veneti on a steal, but when i took out the last; there was 3 more hostile celts behind them. Bombing me with full stacks from their one province nations. (This is a major gamebreaking feature number 1.)

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

How do you people deal with this? Diplomacy doesn't really help - I'm usually on Trade(Nonagression with Syracuse, Sparta, Athens and the Illyrian coast, but for the life of me, I cannot eliminate the Etruskans quickly enough to focus on Veneti or Carthage.

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I'd advice agaisnt letting syracuse to live. I actually didnt get any trade or nap with the rest of the greeks either. But I didnt get war either. But at that point I had two provinces in italia/sicily, the islands, then africa.

Like I mentioned earlier; the game is broken because of the minor faction streight/cheat economics. So the more you take, the more you have to defend while underhanded. The diplomacy is also broken feature; It is single number witch is good or bad. The AI doesnt take into count any realities it lives in and doesnt expect retaliation. So it pretty much plays with all the nations vs you and sacrifices ones just to harash you for one turn.

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Originally Posted by moonshiner57

Any help for a would-be emperor is appreciated! :)

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I hope I helped a bit.

I personally closed the game when I pushed full stack of Arveni from Genua with full stack and my NAP got Genua by bringing 3 ships. This same happened in Palmas or whatever was the last Garthago island. (Game braking feature 3. I'd say that when rome comes to take island or town; 3 nap ships can help but they get no town. Theres stronger possibility that they get their heads on spikes.)

If I continue the save; I need kill all my trade because game doesnt understand what is NAP and what is and army taking city. Plus I have to conquer what I allready conquered.

Theres also 4th game braking feature; Client states. They do not obey their masters at all. Not even if you have slaughtered 99999 of them and left last 1 as king. (I tried that with Etruscansi in korsica; only to find out they had full stack attacking me next turn.)

I'd say raiding cisalpine would be an option but it dont work because the AI one province nation money cheat. So you just have to play nothing but seek and destroy.



Edit: Forgot to add:

My armies are pretty undevelobed. I play with what I can get and try to expand a bit before building up.

9 Hashati (The main line. Principes later on.)
6 Velite (These guys are underappreciated. Put these behind hashati line and they get 60 kills whitout taking losses. And they do win other skrimishers in hand to hand.)
3 Spears (There is cheap spear unit in the start. You get Triaree later on to replace these... You only need them to counter cav.)
1 General (Cav)