The basic Hellenic roster is awesome

I'm playing Epeiros-as-Pergamon once again (fifth time, it seems), and being stuck once more by how excellent the Hellenic roster is. It's available to a lot of factions, and seems to comprise a lot of cheap, yet surprisingly sturdy units. The absolute hero of this set is the Greek Levy Hoplite (Hoplitai Haploi), who cost very little indeed, yet with a decent general can stand up to a lot of tougher, more expensive troops. They're my default garrison troops, two units along with two of Akontistai. I remember a short-lived Pontos game where levy hoplites were better and cheaper than many other spearman options.

I just had a siege where my stone walled Nikaia was defended by that default garrison, plus a unit of Toxotai and one Levy Phalanx. With the machine gun towers (which destroyed the ram before it touched the walls) and the AI's attempt to rush the siege (it only had a ram and one ladder), they wiped out a larger force, comprising a couple of phalangites and some beat up (better quality) infantry. One unit of levy hoplites was killed almost to a man on the top of the walls, but never broke. After destroying most of their force on the walls (the bodies were piled high), they marched out and routed what was left.

A Heroic Victory because of the gulf in quality, rather than being slightly outnumbered:

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...13164804_n.jpg

There are other units worthy of mention, too. Peltastai are both good skirmishers and reliable medium infantry once they're out of ammo. Classical Hoplites are widely available and some of the best value flank-holding troops, or even line-holders in a pinch. Thureophoroi are good flankers, and again widely available. Even levy phalanxes are better value than elite ones, since they only need to be there to hold the centre while the rest of your army goes to work. If you've got access to a blacksmith, and better yet a Gymnasium (and perhaps the right type of government) you get experienced and tooled up troops which sweetens the deal still further. I should note, this group are for regular armies, where the first lot are garrison-only. Though I have found a place for Akontistai sometimes, especially if I'm roleplaying them as Mysian tribesmen or the like.

Sadly where the Hellenic roster falls down is cavalry, there's nothing to get excited about there. Fortunately, with the money you save using the above units, you can hire some good, versatile Curepos (who are again cheap, but very good value). There's really something to be said for economy armies that punch well above their apparent weight.

greek nobles thassalians the light cavalry and their skirmisher cavalry with the axes are all decent units

but the best hands down no doubt are the kretan archers and the rhodioi slingers ain´t so bad either thorokitai the the 2 types with the javelin or with the swords are also pretty good

but they lack proper phallangitais wich in auto calc batle sucks big time

I find replacing the Greek general's elite hoplite bodyguard with Noble Greek cavalry gives KH a balanced army. Having done that, KH armies have a small amount of heavy cavalry as long as they have an FM.

This post explains how to do it:

Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry) as KH FM bodyguard

Note that the 3 starting KH FMs with Spartan hoplite bodyguards do not get changed when you do this.

I always use Epeiros as my migrated-Hellenic faction, so I've always got Molossan Agema, who are pretty good.

the mollossan agema are great they have a greater stamina then even hetaroi and seem a litle bit faster so to kill the mak fm you just have to tire them first

the kh problem is the lack of phallangitai wich in prolonged campaigns means you won´t be using auto calc with can grind your patiente and pleasure on the campaign

also in greece proper only the spartans had lands who could suport decent cavalry (thesallia isn´t greece proper) but since they where fighting other hoplites it didn´t made much sence but a spartan cavalry would be cool i mean their spears have the range they had the equipment

a lamna wearing shield cavalry should put anyone on a nerve fringe
actually the bg´s of the mercenary greek generals always struck me alot as a kind of heavy hoplite on horse
it´s the greek medium cavalry wich actually makes sence i mean the names are similar they both seem dorians

Hellenistic Mercenary General's bodyguard are Lonchophoroi Hippeis.

While lacking exceptional Cavalry the Hellenic rosters Problem isn't cavalry as such. Even KH have good Access to 3 great lancers, plus Tracian Prodromoi and Illyrian Hippeis. 5 different lancers on "homeland united" is actually quite good if you ask me, all other Hellens having the added Bonus of Companion(or Agema) cavalry. The Hippakontistai may not be as good as their barbarian Counterparts but thier still a decent unit. Hippeis may be sorely lacking in the Oompf department but also has it's uses. Aspidophoroi, ok those are overpriced but at least they look pretty. The only Thing the hellens don't have are cavalry archers(exceptions confirm the rule :D) but it's not like those are part of every civs native roster.

so the main cavalry Problem is that they Need some barrack building and/or conquering before you can field anything worthwhile.

IMHO the real weakness of the Hellenic roster is that they don't have any decent swordsmen, just some decent Units that happen to carry a sword(Peltasts) and some High end dissapointing Units that happen to carry a sword(Hypaspistai, Peltmaks) which are not availible to the KH anyway :(

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the kh problem is the lack of phallangitai wich in prolonged campaigns means you won´t be using auto calc with can grind your patiente and pleasure on the campaign

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aye, thats the most infuriating Thing about the KH, that and infantry Generals(which has it's Advantages aswell)

The best things about the Hellenic Basic roster however are it's huge AOR and it's excellent levy lineholders (haploi, Pandaphalanx). Also having Slingers, (ultracrappy) archers,(ultracrappy) Garrison-boosters and very decent coretroops(hoplitai, peltastai) availible basically everywhere is quite a treat, either to get that unit type your army lacks or to just bolster your numbers with easily replacable bulk troops

With the KH it's advisable to fight on the defensive in field battles, at least in the early years while you're short of funds, and rely on the AI making mistakes to win. Once you have plenty of funds you can hire mercenaries like Gallic swordsmen, Karian warbands and Thessalian heavy cavalry to compensate for the weaknesses in your factional roster.

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Originally Posted by moonburn

also in greece proper only the spartans had lands who could suport decent cavalry (thesallia isn´t greece proper) but since they where fighting other hoplites it didn´t made much sence but a spartan cavalry would be cool i mean their spears have the range they had the equipment
it´s the greek medium cavalry wich actually makes sence i mean the names are similar they both seem dorians

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Here is where I got lost...
The people called Hellenes first settled in Thessaly before expanding south and west. They were master horsemen and their chariots were instrumental in overcoming the local Pelasgians. There is actually even a city called Hellas mentioned several times in the Iliad, before the Hellenes gave their name to the whole area they inhabited during the classical times. Achilles' people (from southern Thessaly) were called Myrmidons and Hellenes and Achaeans. Jason the Argonaut ruled from Iolkos in Magnesia, a peninsula in northern Thessaly, just south of Olympus. How is Thessaly not Greece proper?
As far as land suitable for horse breeding is concerned, it seems to me that south of Thessaly, Spartan land does not stand out in any meaningful way, not more than Attica, Boeotia or the plane of Megalopolis.
How is Lakedaimona more suitable than other areas for decent cavalry?
And finally....
What names seem Dorian???

hellas proper is a mountenais region if you remove thessaly only the spartans had a vale kind of land to suport horses big enough to be ridden on

as for dorian names the term argives and some spartan names and the royal makedonian family names seems very similar to me or maybe it´s just the way i pronounce it but it seems to me that it refers to a common ancestry long in the past unlike the athenians who were achadians not dorians

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Originally Posted by moonburn

hellas proper is a mountenais region if you remove thessaly only the spartans had a vale kind of land to suport horses big enough to be ridden on

as for dorian names the term argives and some spartan names and the royal makedonian family names seems very similar to me or maybe it´s just the way i pronounce it but it seems to me that it refers to a common ancestry long in the past unlike the athenians who were achadians not dorians

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Still lost... sorry... never mind...

Here's my mixed Celto-Hellenic force in my Epeiros-as-Massalia game, trashing Sweboz:

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...01015495_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

IMHO the real weakness of the Hellenic roster is that they don't have any decent swordsmen, just some decent Units that happen to carry a sword(Peltasts) and some High end dissapointing Units that happen to carry a sword(Hypaspistai, Peltmaks) which are not availible to the KH anyway :(

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More specifically, they don't have high lethality infantry and very little in the way of AP melee infantry (except for one elite unit).

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Originally Posted by moonburn

hellas proper is a mountenais region if you remove thessaly only the spartans had a vale kind of land to suport horses big enough to be ridden on

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Not really, since the Eurotas vale is very fertile and hence all the more important for agriculture (you can grow almost anything there, from wheat to pomegranates). Plus it's not actually very big, and AFAIK the Lakedaimonians didn't bother too much with cavalry. In EB, the only cavalry unit available there is Hippeis.

I suppose you could make a case for the Argolis or Attika and their topography, since the terrain there is a bit more open. Also Makedonia of course, which is what I suspect you meant in the first place when talking about Thessaly. Although of course the EB province of Makedonia had Hellenes living in several places.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

I suppose you could make a case for the Argolis or Attika and their topography, since the terrain there is a bit more open. Also Makedonia of course, which is what I suspect you meant in the first place when talking about Thessaly. Although of course the EB province of Makedonia had Hellenes living in several places.

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including the makedones themselfs being hellenes

the lakedomian homeland was fertile so i assumed that since it could sustain 10.000 spartan warriors and tens of thousands of helots it should be able to suport a cavalary unit wich is kind of useless considering how the greeks and their ritualised batles worked but they could

also i believe i read somewhere that the dorians came from the north mounted on horses and since the thessalians and the makedonians where very adept of horse war the spartans could have had at some point a cavalary history onto to them but that might come from a few other gmes i played which weren´t so historially correct

and i meant thessally the land beteween hellas proper and makedonia