[Migrated Faction/Epeiros] Where should I begin my migration campaign?

As I've already mentioned, for my first game of the beta, I'll be trying a migration campaign. I figure I'm more likely to cause problems that might flag bugs that way, and given people will be testing the game to its limits, I don't want to get too attached to a game this early on.

Since I've done it before in EB1 and it was lots of fun, I'm going to migrate Epeiros again. Historically, they ceased to be a meaningful Mediterranean power after 270BC, so I don't feel any conflict about removing them from their native location to start again somewhere else. From a roleplaying perspective, it's going to be the collapse of the house of Aiakides and their attempt to survive somewhere else.

The question then is just where to go. I can't use either of my original first picks, Pergamon and the Bosporan Kingdom, because they are now factions in their own right. So that leaves me to find somewhere new. It must be somewhere with a Greek heritage, so that I still have the Hellenic roster to draw upon. This is one of the primary things that makes this migration viable, not being left with a narrow roster of regionals and whatever mercenaries are around. In none of the instances am I planning to go mad with great expansion, they'll stay relatively small regional powers, likely having no more than five provinces at their height. I'll restrict my influence beyond my small heartland to agents and expeditionary forces to tip the balance of the wider region in my favour. This is how I like to play; carve out a small, but economically viable little fief, one easily defended, then meddle in the affairs of the other local factions.

Options I've tried before:
Kyrene - in EB this was fun, but there were very limited prospects for expansion without hitting either Qart-Hadast or the Ptolemies, both of whom never left me alone. The only place I could really go and remain unassailed was Krete and Kypros. The latter of course would mean war with the Ptolemies, but that's fairly inevitable anyway. At least with the trade and mines from that island I'd have the money to keep fighting. It's also Eastern Greek, rather than Western Greek, which might limit some of my development and recruitment prospects.
Massalia - I loved this in EB, though without Keltohellenikoi I'll be missing a crucial element of my line. It has some obvious and immediate acquisition goals: Aleria on Korsim (which once had a sister colony founded by the Phokaians) and Emporiton in Lacetania (again founded by Phokaians). This allows a nice three-way trading dynamic founded on naval power, which is appropriate. It's a shame the maritime economy is completely passive in TW games, this would make a great pirate empire. Given I'm casting myself right into the Karthadastim's zone of interest, it'll be war with them. I did have to cheat to keep the Romans bottled up in Italia, forever boosting the garrisons of the three northern Italiote provinces to stop them expanding into Gallia 200 years early, hopefully in EBII they'll be more concerned with southern Italia and Sikelia at first.
Syrakousai - I tried this, it wasn't fun. Little scope for expansion beyond taking all of Sikelia, and perhaps Shardin and Korsim before having to face the Romani juggernaught over and again. Uniting Megale Hellas is a possibility, though going more ahistorical than I usually like to, and possibly forcing the Romani to go north early (which annoyed me no end in EB1).

New options I haven't tried:
Olbia - I'd be right up against the Getai who I can guarantee wouldn't leave me alone. In the region of Hellenic-Skythian fusion which could be interesting, though if I go east that means entering the sphere of both the Bosporans and Sauromatae. If armour still counts against arrows, and foot archers can be an effective counter to horse-archers, then this could still be entertaining. Histria, Skythiapolis, Byzantion and Chersonesos are possible targets.
Byzantion - this would be for an "inverse Pergamon", where I try to rebuild the European part of the Thraikian Kingdom (Odrysai, Thrakikia Hypertera, Mikra Skythia), then perhaps try to take Asia Minor afterwards. Immediate threat from Makedonia, and I'd need to keep both Pontos and Pergamon at bay since both have designs on Bithynia.
Sinope - historically a significant independent polis for a long time, though being Eastern Greek might limit development/recruitment. It's right in the shadow of Pontos and holding the city they'd want as their capital in a greater Pontic state, and with only Trapezous as a relatively safe early target. Still, Pontos would effectively be a shield against the other three factions in Asia Minor.
Singidunon - this feels like a bit of a soft option, since it's not that far from Ambrakia, but is perhaps the most realistic of them. The surviving Aiakides become mercenary captains in the lands of the Skordiskoi, seizing control of the kingdom. However, it would turn into a regular Epeiros game, unless I made myself play them as having a mission to ge the Thraikioi lands, rather than Illyria and Hellas.

Suggestion: Play your migration campaigns in the order in which the home cities historically fell to foreign conquerors. 'First to die' becomes 'first to play'.

I think that puts Syrakousai first on your list.

Since you didn't enjoy playing Syrakousai in EB1, all the more reason to get it out of the way first in EB2, as it meets your criteria of a campaign you won't get too attached to.

Plus you'll have the fun of seeing the EB2 Romans and Carthaginians in action, and seeing how they react to a Greek interloper in their midst. It's a good opportunity to test out the diplomacy. And you'll be playing EB2 for the first time, the enjoyment of which will mitigate the pain when you get beaten into submission by a stronger enemy.

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

Suggestion: Play your migration campaigns in the order in which the home cities historically fell to foreign conquerors. 'First to die' becomes 'first to play'.

I think that puts Syrakousai first on your list.

Since you didn't enjoy playing Syrakousai in EB1, all the more reason to get it out of the way first in EB2, as it meets your criteria of a campaign you won't get too attached to.

Plus you'll have the fun of seeing the EB2 Romans and Carthaginians in action, and seeing how they react to a Greek interloper in their midst. It's a good opportunity to test out the diplomacy. And you'll be playing EB2 for the first time, the enjoyment of which will mitigate the pain when you get beaten into submission by a stronger enemy.

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That's not a bad idea at all, it means it's more likely as I play each that serious bugs will be found and fixed, and thus each one can go on a little longer than the last. And as you say, novelty value should override any frustration from getting hammered by two local superpowers!

I'm feeling a little vindicated in my choice of Epeiros for this venture, look how complete their roster is already:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuyEBYoCAAAEZ8C.jpg:large

Haha, dammit Quintus, this migration campaign stuff is going too far. :laugh4:

Aren't you curious to play as Pergamon, since they're a proper faction this time around?

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Originally Posted by Paltmull

Haha, dammit Quintus, this migration campaign stuff is going too far. :laugh4:

Aren't you curious to play as Pergamon, since they're a proper faction this time around?

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I am, very much so. However, I don't want to get 20 turns into a game only to discover a game-breaking bug has been found, and the fix isn't savegame compatible. So while everyone thrashes out the bugs, I'll do something I won't be too attached to if it should have to be halted.

Hey Quintus, how's the Syrakousai campaign going?

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

Hey Quintus, how's the Syrakousai campaign going?

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It's Massalia; on TWC the votes were overwhelmingly for that. I've started an AAR thread.

I might start a Syrakousai campaign soon, though. I'm 100 turns into the Massalia game and running out of justifications to expand.

Conquering Megale Hellas is a pretty good medium-term goal, and the Aiakides family already have a history in Sicily.

Syrakousai game is out; there was an omission in the descr_strat.txt for the settlement which left out it's Hellenistic Poleis. Making it really difficult to develop.

It's back on! I've updated the descr_strat.txt with the missing buildings for Olbia and Syrakousai, so they are both now viable sites for starting points. If anyone else wants to try this, make sure you get the updated file. Also adds them to Capua, Chersonesos, Histria, Lilibeo, Messana, Nikaia, Rhegion and Trapezous, making all of Megale Hellas viable for a Syrakousai campaign (or indeed Epeiros, Makedonia or Koinon Hellenon looking to conquer it all).

I'm actually trying one myself as Pergamon, though I just started. Pergamon are Western Greeks too so it works well.

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Originally Posted by joshmahurin

I'm actually trying one myself as Pergamon, though I just started. Pergamon are Western Greeks too so it works well.

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Are you not worried about the hole you leave in Asia Minor if you migrate them? My main reason for picking Epeiros is that if the mod were set a few months later, they probably wouldn't even be a faction, since Pyrrhos was dead and the kingdom was left in ruins.

Where are you going to?

Nah, either I'll give it to KH or let it rebel. They ended up just giving Rome their territory so why not give it to KH :P And I meant that I was going to try in Syrakousai. It's a longer trek but still. I actually already tried once but apparently I edited all the other greek colonies and forgot Syrakousai....

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Originally Posted by joshmahurin

Nah, either I'll give it to KH or let it rebel. They ended up just giving Rome their territory so why not give it to KH :P And I meant that I was going to try in Syrakousai. It's a longer trek but still. I actually already tried once but apparently I edited all the other greek colonies and forgot Syrakousai....

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You don't need to walk there! Just use the console to teleport yourself where you need to start out.

Hahaha I was using a ship, screw walking that would be insane haha. But yeah I suppose console commands would be smarter...

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Originally Posted by joshmahurin

Hahaha I was using a ship, screw walking that would be insane haha. But yeah I suppose console commands would be smarter...

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Teleport the ship.

I'm actually debating doing some more extensive edits and switching all Pergamons starting stuff to Eleutheroi and giving Pergamon all of Syracuse's stuff so it starts off the way I want and can actually really roleplay as Syrakousai

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Originally Posted by joshmahurin

I'm actually debating doing some more extensive edits and switching all Pergamons starting stuff to Eleutheroi and giving Pergamon all of Syracuse's stuff so it starts off the way I want and can actually really roleplay as Syrakousai

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I thought I could simplify an Epirote migration by getting rid of Taras in the descr_strat.txt, not so simple. It's tied to victory conditions somehow, and had an error that told you to go back to the menu when I tried to start (though it didn't crash).

Anyway, lack of much of the Scythian or Thraikian rosters makes Olbia and Byzantion less attractive, and having tooled around in the west a lot, I think Syrakousai might feel a bit same-y. I don't want to go direct to a proper Epeiros game (though the Illyrian roster looks tasty), so I might try out Sinope next. Or else Kyrene and dash for Krete, since two settlements seems to be the minimum for a viable economy.

I've updated my submod to be less expansive with adding them all over the place. Now just Syrakousai (Metropolis) and Capua, Messana and Rhegion (Small Hellenistic Poleis).

I might start a Syrakousai game tomorrow. Epeiros are an even better fit for this than they are Massalia, given Pyrrhos was actually a king in Sicily for a short time.

I did muse briefly on a Sinope game, but given Pontos have several full stacks at the start of the game, it might get tedious. Plus Asia Minor is very crowded, though at least Pontos is a sort of shield against the two big boys.

In the next patch Syrakousai will have a Metropolis, however this will be the only change as per the faction leader's choice.

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Originally Posted by joshmahurin

In the next patch Syrakousai will have a Metropolis, however this will be the only change as per the faction leader's choice.

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Yeah, I did note that. I've just started a Syrakousai game, where I've retained Taras, but it's changed government to an Allied Oligarchy to represent more...autonomy in its relationship with what's left of the Epirote throne. I left in my Megale Hellas minor polis-edits (Messana, Rhegion and Capua) besides the team-approved Metropolis in Syrakousai. No option to send out colonists yet.

I did attempt a Sinope game, but it just felt aimless. Whereas Syrakousai has a reason for Epeiros being there, and a really obvious mission to unite Megale Hellas. For now we're biding our time and licking our wounds from the loss of the homeland. Everyone accepted a ceasefire except the Romans, who laughed in our faces.