Fate- does it exist?

Im one of those weirdos who believes that there is some aspect of fate in our lives.

For me at least its not a set thing though. I see it as more of diverging paths that each decision in life takes you on a different road with a different result. Like had I stayed at my old university, I would have never gone to Norway or traveled Europe as much as I have, wouldn't have gone to see the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo (as I wouldnt have worked for a year to raise the money for it). All those things set me on the path I am now and I think there is an end state for all of this that is determined by some sort of force that we cannot understand.

When I think of all of this I very much think of Robert Frost's poem, "The Road Not Taken"-

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Thoughts? Of the people Ive talked to about this I seem to be in the minority when it comes to this so Im interested to hear if anyone else thinks the same way.

Fate is the opposite of determinism. Think about that.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Fate is the opposite of determinism. Think about that.

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You mean that as in determinism assumes that the state of an object leads to a new state whereas with fate the following state of the object is determined by an outside power? The practical implications of the two seem to be pretty much the same to me.

I for one think the universe is somewhat deterministic, but I do not think too much about it because it ruins the fun.

In causality, there is an intuitive "arrow of time": Precedents lead to (if not "determine") consequents.

Fate is a sort of determinism, so they will sound similar in effect. It's just that fate is standard determinism in reverse.

Hmm. Is fate a other word for destiny? It is something I am struggling with, because part of the atheist wants something for explanation for events I try to control.
You know, I am at the age where question "if I could, what would I change" happened. And the fact is my answer is nothing. All doors closed meant a new door opened. Better or not, I will never know.
As a Prachet's reader, I know there no what if as there is no guarantee that a different choice/road would have given a better result of worst.
No girl friend at 19, no marriage, no divorce, perhaps still in the army or killed in Iraq or Africa, no university, etc, to the end of no beautiful grand-daughters. Or perhaps not.
Fate: a wild river on which you are kayaking with the illusion you control the stream, and any way, finish by death
Life is a sexually transmitted deadly disease said a French humorist.

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

In general I don't think we're destined but if God decides you're going to be the next Moses you don't really have any options.

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you don't really have any options.

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AHA!

But then as God he would have "decided" an infinity ago...

Fate: God's plan, sans God.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

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For me at least its not a set thing though. I see it as more of diverging paths that each decision in life takes you on a different road with a different result.
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I'm roughly along those lines too. Path -> Crossroad with paths -> path -> crossroad with paths etc. A bit like an irregular net. Some are mutually exclusive and irreversible, sometimes you may encounter a path you left a few crossroads before.
It basically comes down to what you yourself want and do, and the consequences of your actions, which are not entirely visible to you beforehand, leading to the assumption of an outside force determining that which comes to pass. I don't share that assumption, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Im one of those weirdos who believes that there is some aspect of fate in our lives.

Thoughts?

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Stupid.

I'll just quote one of our best football players after he scored one of those "once in a million" goals...

"Well, you know, the harder you train the more luck you get".

And I think that quote is enough to leave this discussion.

I believe in metaphysical determinism. This metaphysical determinism could encompass both natural processes (eg, A inevitably leads to B) as well as the supernatural (eg, God ordains a special purpose for Moses). Or, it could just be one without the other. Secular folk tend to believe either just the first or neither, whereas religious folk tend to believe just the latter. I think both are true. I suppose what people call fate would be that latter kind.

However, I'm not 100% as set on this as I used to be. After looking into quantum mechanics, I think there is scope for genuine chance within the universe, which could blow the whole determinism thing out the water.

Quantum mysticism is one of the biggest institutional embarrassments since the Ptolemaic model.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

AHA!

But then as God he would have "decided" an infinity ago...

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True, but he may have decided we have free will.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

However, I'm not 100% as set on this as I used to be. After looking into quantum mechanics, I think there is scope for genuine chance within the universe, which could blow the whole determinism thing out the water.

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How or why? People seem to use quantum physics to justify almost anything but I rarely see a detailed and convincing explanation.

Do clerics and theologians who ponder God long enough eventually come to cringe at the thought of Him as we do when a millipede scurries out from beneath our pillows?

I would say that human graspings must do violence to God as He is, but if He is God then they would only damage ourselves.

Then again, I guess that's the whole point of the Christian 'special connection' to divinity: a loophole...

There is the issue with 'meddling'. You can influence people into certain paths, but does it make it determinism if they are choosing by their freewill to take that path?

For example, in two days, Rhyfelwyr is go to his corner shop to get a scratch card which gives him 1 million pounds. He can obviously ignore this and think "Yeah, I am not doing this Beskar", but now I start working behind the scenes. I throw Rhy's milk away so he needs to pick up some more, I plant a sign that says the corner shop is giving away free milk, so he goes to the corner shop, then I get the shop keeper to give him a complimentary ticket which I planted there. Rhy takes the ticket, goes home, thinks "Why not" scratches it, wins a million.

Is that really determinism? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Husar

How or why? People seem to use quantum physics to justify almost anything but I rarely see a detailed and convincing explanation.

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You would like to see a detailed explanation of something in terms of quantum physics? You have my condolesences. Or deepest respect.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

For example, in two days, Rhyfelwyr is go to his corner shop to get a scratch card which gives him 1 million pounds. He can obviously ignore this and think "Yeah, I am not doing this Beskar", but now I start working behind the scenes. I throw Rhy's milk away so he needs to pick up some more, I plant a sign that says the corner shop is giving away free milk, so he goes to the corner shop, then I get the shop keeper to give him a complimentary ticket which I planted there. Rhy takes the ticket, goes home, thinks "Why not" scratches it, wins a million.

Is that really determinism? I don't think so.

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It is encouraging unhealthy passivity with gratis money.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

There is the issue with 'meddling'. You can influence people into certain paths, but does it make it determinism if they are choosing by their freewill to take that path?

For example, in two days, Rhyfelwyr is go to his corner shop to get a scratch card which gives him 1 million pounds. He can obviously ignore this and think "Yeah, I am not doing this Beskar", but now I start working behind the scenes. I throw Rhy's milk away so he needs to pick up some more, I plant a sign that says the corner shop is giving away free milk, so he goes to the corner shop, then I get the shop keeper to give him a complimentary ticket which I planted there. Rhy takes the ticket, goes home, thinks "Why not" scratches it, wins a million.

Is that really determinism? I don't think so.

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If you can reasonably claim that Rhyfelwyr would, given his circumstances and experiences which are fixed at any given point in time, never do something other than what he actually does, then yes. Do people really choose that path or is that path a theoretically predictable outcome given all their experiences, inputs and the influences you are giving them?

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Originally Posted by Husar

...or is that path a theoretically predictable outcome given all their experiences, inputs and the influences you are giving them?

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I believe with a super complicated machine, we could theoretical get pretty accurate results which reflect this, as it is possible to create influences to alter someone's behaviour. We do this all the time in society as we are constantly learning and adapting, through positive reinforcement and punishment.

We can make pretty good predictions with groups of people already since the early 1900's and with a lot of individuals. It is part of hypothesis testing in Psychological studies where you predict behaviour on factors, and you change the factor for another group, then see if it made a significant difference.

Taken to the 'spiritual' level, if there is a massively powerful being, they could alter the circumstances and influences to reasonably make you do something if they wanted, but such actions are not set in stone.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Do clerics and theologians who ponder God long enough eventually come to cringe at the thought of Him as we do when a millipede scurries out from beneath our pillows?

I would say that human graspings must do violence to God as He is, but if He is God then they would only damage ourselves.

Then again, I guess that's the whole point of the Christian 'special connection' to divinity: a loophole...

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There's a joke in theology about the Master who compiles his Magnum Opus and then discovers after twenty years of work that he no longer believes in God.

Then there's Thomas Aquinas who completed his Summa and learned how to levitate.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

There is the issue with 'meddling'. You can influence people into certain paths, but does it make it determinism if they are choosing by their freewill to take that path?

For example, in two days, Rhyfelwyr is go to his corner shop to get a scratch card which gives him 1 million pounds. He can obviously ignore this and think "Yeah, I am not doing this Beskar", but now I start working behind the scenes. I throw Rhy's milk away so he needs to pick up some more, I plant a sign that says the corner shop is giving away free milk, so he goes to the corner shop, then I get the shop keeper to give him a complimentary ticket which I planted there. Rhy takes the ticket, goes home, thinks "Why not" scratches it, wins a million.

Is that really determinism? I don't think so.

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I agree, that would not be determinism. External influences don't change the fact that the person is free to make a choice in response to those influences. They are still choosing things with their own will.

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I agree, that would not be determinism. External influences don't change the fact that the person is free to make a choice in response to those influences. They are still choosing things with their own will.

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In fact, "influence" makes free will not merely impossible, but conceptually incoherent.

To say something is influenced by something else is just to say that the former is determined.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

To say something is influenced by something else is just to say that the former is determined.

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But if something is determined, then nothing would be able to influence it not to be. Such as, "Montmorency will stay in home all day" is your fate, but if I put an icecream van out inside with free icecream, you may exit it, thus you invalidate the determined.

Fate probably doesn't exist and if it does Deterministic outcomes still do.

If Fate exists it is because of an outside force willfully acting on the object. If I move a vessel it is my deterministic outcome to do so, whilst it is its fate to be acted upon.

Where my vessel would be a coffee cup, a god's vessel would be a human.

=][=

Personally I think life is sufficiently chaotic and choices essentially limitless that some of us actively choose our own paths and the rest of us plod along in well worn groves of our own choice.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

But if something is determined, then nothing would be able to influence it not to be. Such as, "Montmorency will stay in home all day" is your fate, but if I put an icecream van out inside with free icecream, you may exit it, thus you invalidate the determined.

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But that you would put the ice-cream truck there was already determined, therefore your initial hypothesis of Montmorency staying at home all day was simply wrong since you did not know about the ice-cream factor in advance.

This is at best a hole in your knowledge about the future or about all the predetermined happenings and how they are inevitably going to predetermine other things but not a hole in the logic of predetermination.

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But if something is determined, then nothing would be able to influence it not to be. Such as, "Montmorency will stay in home all day" is your fate, but if I put an icecream van out inside with free icecream, you may exit it, thus you invalidate the determined.

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Husar is correct. A determined scenario is simply the condensate of the miasma of influences. As always, the answer lies in our ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

If Fate exists it is because of an outside force willfully acting on the object.

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Fate is usually considered in terms of an intentional force, but this is just an artifact of how we view ourselves. If we're going to entertain a notion of states of matter at one time exerting 'new' force on states of a prior time, then we might well imagine a situation in which the heat-death of our sun causes AskthePizzaGuy to be elected President of the United States in 2028. But that's a meaningless figment.

There are a few hacks who like to play around with the philosophy of Fate, but they always ignore both its uselessness and its obscurantism.

One of the many demerits against contemporary quantum theory is that there is a significant school within the discipline that argues for a role of Fate not dissimilar from what was in my example above.

Fate is what people call it when they look back and try to make sense of it all.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Fate is what people call it when they look back and try to make sense of it all.

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I like this.

I don't believe in fate myself. Things aren't already decided.