Do certain units improve public order more than other units? Like, maybe Town Watch does more than ELC, and such?
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Do certain units improve public order more than other units? Like, maybe Town Watch does more than ELC, and such?
It's been ages since I played R:TW, but I don't recall that being the case. Only unit size made a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
There was always a long-standing debate about whether peasants vs regular troops made a difference. Never 'officially' researched, tho'.....
A peasant garrison, for some reason, was only half as effective at reducing public unrest as regular troops in BI, but apparently not so in R1.
About the only thing that can be said about peasants is that they are probably the most cost effective garrison...just don't let the city rebel:pray:
If you can wade through the geek-speak math:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...rrison-Effects
In vanilla always opt for peasant garrisons, due to how cheap and big they are. Keep in mind that a garrison can never account for more than a 80% public order bonus, so don't throw units in past that point because it's just a waste of money. In BI, the factions that can train peasants should still use them as garrisons due to how cheap they are (I didn't have public order issues with them throughout my BI campaigns). Factions that can't train peasants (like the Huns) will have to cope with pretty significant garrison costs to keep the population happy.
In the EB mod you can get away with extremely small garrisons at times (think one governor + 1 cheap unit), due to the large number of buildings that give happiness & law bonuses and the fact that governors with proper education can actually end up being really good at their job. It's very nice.
Of course frontier towns need military garrisons, but otherwise that may work. Which if they do decide to rebel, you are in trouble. Right now I am Macedon, so I can field Phalanx and Levy Pikemen for garrisons. I always like a garrison to be able to defend itself or quell a rebellion.Quote:
Originally Posted by wooly_mammoth
I actually searched for that thread, but managed to overlook it completely. Thanks for finding it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Reminds me of an unusual situation I had during a Parthian campaign.Quote:
I always like a garrison to be able to defend itself or quell a rebellion.
I was trying to stay on the fringes of the 'Big E' until I could boost my economy enough to compete. I had already snagged Hatra and Seleucia from the Seleucids, and gearing up to eliminate Armenia. Egypt had just captured Palmyra but got booted out next turn by a rebellion. To my surprise...the new city garrison was flying the Parthian Standard~:eek:
Of course Egypt would have none of that and besieged the next turn, and having no walls yet, they assaulted. I was tempted to just punch the whole thing out anyway especially because there was no way I was in a position yet to crank out enough troops to compete for very long against the Ptolemaic war machine. And because 3/4 of my troops were peasants..."silver-plated" mind you, but still only peasants:creep:
Fought the battle anyway against a moderately strong enemy stack with no chariots except for the general....and won:laugh4: Lost most of my troops but killed the enemy general and routed the remainder of his troops, which was fun and amusing.....for about two turns, when Egypt declared a cease-fire with everyone they were at war with to concentrate on Parthia.
Can you say Reload Please?:bounce:
Moral of the story...not all peasants are created equal~:smoking:
Well, think of it this way. For public order only the number of the troops, not their quality matters. Rebellions are very rare all in all and enemy attacks will always focus on your borders. So, every good soldier you leave sitting idly in a garrison deep in your territory is just an added burden on your economy with no return value. I'd suggest using peasants for garrisons, field armies to protect frontiers as you expand and have moderate mobile forces moving through the heart of your lands to eliminate rebel armies as they pop up. They can unite into doomstacks if left unchecked and may on occasion attack you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Some settlements (Corduba, Patavium, Londinium, Tanais) will rebel on you anyway. The mobile forces is something I do, right now using Scythian Mercenaries for my Macedon campaign. Usually it will be all cav. I utilize smaller garrisons in my central towns, and the garrison size partially depends on who I am. For some reason, towns are less happy in this campaign. But as Macedon, one can utilize Levy Pikemen, who are trained military who are also cheap. I probably should use more of those in a garrison as opposed to my Phalanx Pikemen. I also utilize real military troops for a realistic aspect, a town would have a garrison, though again, probably lots of levy and militia troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by wooly_mammoth
I also will train backup troops from my towns. I will have a main army (or two, or three, in different areas, but mainly concentrating on one area in this regard) and I will funnel garrisons along. As my main army is conquering, there will be a garrison army following to take over several turns later so the main army can get out in the field. I may have two or three garrison armies following as I get farther away from my center of training, which is usually Italy or Greece.
I will have to research if unit types actually make a difference. That would probably be in the descr_ somewhere, although if nobody can say for sure it probably doesn't, as it would probably been found already. My brother playing Empire Total War said that some units did add to public order, in his case some type of Dragoon. They actually had a policing effect, as opposed to say a unit of musketeers (just an example unit, don't know if musketeers had same attribute or not). But that was Empire, not Rome.
Annoying when they do that, isn't it? I was at war with Gaul, Dacia, Thrace, and Greece, who were all allied with each other, and at least one had a spy in Bylazora, so my gates were always open when they attacked, which was frequently. Not anymore, ha ha ha. Gaul is the only one left. Julii went into Spain and not Gaul, and I am about to begin a campaign against them there.Quote:
when Egypt declared a cease-fire with everyone they were at war with to concentrate on Parthia.
You can add two more cities to that list...Jerusalem and Tarsus. All these cities have one thing in common...a built-in unrest factor anywhere from 15% to 30% depending on the city. It's hard-coded and there's nothing you can do about it except get them to ZPG if you can, which puts an end to rebellions.Quote:
Some settlements (Corduba, Patavium, Londinium, Tanais) will rebel on you anyway.
Macedon has one of the finest Law & Order temples in the game (Temple of Zeus) and if you retain control of Corinth, you get the +4 Public Order bonus from Olympus.
As Armenia, I welcome it. It only hastens the Pharaoh's demise~D But Parthia is not as well equipped to deal with the hordes of chariots and Desert Axmen, and it's much more difficult to get their economy up and running.Quote:
Annoying when they do that, isn't it?
Overall, if there is a port, I build my temples to Ares to get the trade bonus. Ares also seems to do well for public order, and gives three experience. That is nice, the trade temple helping with experience. However, in Rome, I built to Zeus, since he is the ruler of the gods. Artemis is nice for the missile weapon increase, but a Pentheion to Zeus will give the gold weapon status, just not as early as to Artemis since it has to be a Pentheion. Would a farm temple really be helpful? The farms have some bearing with growth and plague, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Got that right. If you are Parthia, forget defending towns, sally forth, and build lots of horse archers and Cataphracts. Against Egypt, however, how do you handle the chariots? I guess shoot them to pieces with your horse archers, and I think Parthia gets a good foot archer as well, correct me if I am wrong. I know you don't like slingers, but they do very well against chariots, if you can protect them from melee combat, which is a problem in Parthia's situation to begin with. I guess Hillmen to prevent the chariots from riding right into them. The problem with slingers is they don't really shoot over your troops like archers do, so you will lose more of your men to friendly fire. And normal slingers don't have the range of Balearic or Rhodian Slingers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
When I play Macedon, Ares goes in recruitment cities only and never when there is a resident governor. The "Bloodthirsty" trait is a -1 to Command, and -3 to Morale:furious2: The Temple of Zeus has a Happiness bonus double that of Ares (50% vs 25%).Quote:
Ares also seems to do well for public order, and gives three experience.
Demeter is good for those "slow growers" that just can't seem to get enough population to reach maximum development. Once there, and stability is re-established (and possibly the addition of a governor with lots of influence), tear it down in favor of something better. Too much farm leads to high squalor:cry:Quote:
Would a farm temple really be helpful? The farms have some bearing with growth and plague, right?
Persian Cavalry fronted by Cats. PC is not nearly as good as Cataphract Archers, but they get the job done. The Cats are there to keep the Chariot Archers from attempting melee, and then move in for the kill when the CA's are greatly reduced in numbers. Parthian foot archers are vanilla Middle Eastern archers. I only use them to defend walled cities where they are reasonably effective. You're right, I don't like slingers because of the direct line-of-fire, but they are effective, as you say, against chariots.Quote:
Against Egypt, however, how do you handle the chariots?
I am certainly tearing down the temples to Ceres whenever I have to quell a rebellion:smash:. I thought that farms reduced squalor, though that was only my understanding from reading other threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Tarsus will certainly get a temple of Zeus, as will Corduba. Granted, most of my cities won't have governors, but still, the traits may come into play. I would rather have happy towns than some additional cash, especially while Egypt and Rome are still around, so I don't have to deal with very improved Roman or Egyptian units if I get kicked out. Also, it probably doesn't make all that much difference at this point in the game for additional trade.
As far as the Parthian archers goes, I must have been thinking the Eastern Archers from Barbarian Invasion:oops:. Do the Cataphracts do better against Chariots than standard cav then, because Egypt's chariots really restrict the use of my cav.
Farms increase food supply which increases population, and and increasing population adds to squalor.Quote:
I thought that farms reduced squalor
Especially once you capture Rhodes with the Colossus adding 40% to trade:shrug: Don't recall if I've ever built a 'trade' temple except very early in a game, and I've had treasuries into the millions of denarii when playing non-barbarians...Quote:
Also, it probably doesn't make all that much difference at this point in the game for additional trade.
Yes. That heavy armor reduces the losses you'd expect from non-armored cavalry. Still not a good idea to go wading into a full-strength unit of chariots, which is why I let the Persian Cavalry whittle them down first.Quote:
Do the Cataphracts do better against Chariots than standard cav
Elephants also waste chariots. But Parthia can't afford elephants, though I believe they can train them. You have to be doing really well with Parthia if you are fielding elephants. Persian cav are your best option, and then get to merc hoplites when you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
As Parthia, you don't have much choice as far as trade temple or public order temples, you are stuck with one. Don't know what their temple does, but then again, Parthia never lasts long enough to get very high.
Zoroaster (One God)...25% Law 25% Happiness...so pretty decent in that respect. No other bonuses of any kind:shame: The traits conferred are good: (+1/+2/+3) to Influence and (+1/+2/+3) to Management.Quote:
Don't know what their temple does
Never played a full Parthian campaign...too predictable and tedious. In my games, Egypt always forms an alliance with Pontus, and ignores Seleucia, which means even after eliminating Armenia, there's three powerful factions to fight, all with very good infantry. Sometimes, to make matters worse, a wandering stack of Scythians come down from the Steppes looking for a fight:wall: And with a very meager economy, it's difficult to compete.
My best progress was moving as quickly as possible into Anatolia after sacking Seleucia and Hatra, via eliminating the Armenians. But if Egypt and Seleucia declare a ceasefire and stick to it, they concentrate on Parthia separately which makes the going tough.
I've had Parthian Ellies, though never more than one or two units. Never waste them on chariots...best use is for busting up all the Desert Axmen hordes followed by a good old-fashioned hoof stomping by Cataphracts~D
Now are the maces that the Cataphracts carry effective against armour? I have started having my cav use their swords on infantry and spears on cavalry. I don't think I have ever seen the Cataphracts with their maces, because for a while I never knew about cavalry's alternate attack. Hmm. I wonder if the same goes for spear infantry. I know with a phalanx unit they attack with swords when the phalanx is up, but I think some elite spearmen carry swords, so if I can make them use them, that might be better against enemy infantry. In my experience, cav beat swords, swords beat spears, spears beat cav.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Yep.Quote:
Now are the maces that the Cataphracts carry effective against armour?
When attacking infantry, AP weapons make the target armour = (Armour - 1) / 2.
When attacking cavalry, AP weapons make the target armour = (Armour - 2) / 2.
The shield modifier is not used in this calculation, it is applied after the AP effect.