Mongol Hordes

I am currently playing the Turkish ( starting at 1205 - High period ).

The Mongols duly arrived ( around 1228 ) with several stacks ( 1st Horde ) appearing in Georgia, just as I was about to lay siege to it's "castle".
I opted to withdraw my forces to Trebizond and awaited the invasion of my little ( 6 province ) Turkish Empire.

[ NB : Other stacks in the 1st Horde also went to 2 ( or 3 ) provinces North of Georgia. ]

The Mongols decided to attack Armenia and I beat them off twice ( 2 separate invasions in successive turns ).
They then gave me a turn's respite ( during which a 2nd Horde appeared in Georgia )...
Most of the 2nd Horde moved off into "Russia" ( to join the 1st Horde ) leaving 3 stacks behind, two of which invaded Armenia again.
This time I drove them off the field of Battle ( even though I was outnumbered 2-1 ), as their General unit made a rash "lone" charge and got himself captured !

Can anyone out there tell me how many Horde "waves" will appear during the game ?

[ As you will see from my comments above, I have noted two Hordes to date. ]

NB : Each Horde arriving in Georgia had approx. 10-12 stacks. I presume further 2nd Horde stacks also arrived / appeared North of Georgia.

When the GH first emerge they can appear in 1, 2 or 3 different provinces, depending on the current strategic situation.

Khazar - usually the bulk of their forces, typically 15 stacks
Georgia - smaller, but still pretty big
Armenia or possibly Edessa - again a smaller army

This is all basically the one emergence. Like any other faction though, if you kill off the royals*, the rest will turn rebel, but there is always a danger of re-emergences. If the faction re-emerges, you'll get a NEW army somewhere, plus the old rebels will revert to GH faction.

How many times this happens is all down to your individual game. It's always interesting to have the whole map revealed (.matteosartori. cheat code) at emergence time, just to keep an eye on them - or flood the area with agents so you can see without having to use the cheat....


* on the first emergence there is only ONE royal - the Khan - so if you can kill him in the first year, the faction goes rebel straight away. I think there are a couple of immature heirs, but theyb take a couple of years before coming of age. It's a narrow window, but there IS a window when you can knock them out. It's worth having some emissaries in the neighbourhood, as Mongol troops are very cheap to bribe, and have low upkeep costs, and it's always nice to have a few Mongols in your army :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

This is all basically the one emergence. Like any other faction though, if you kill off the royals*, the rest will turn rebel, but there is always a danger of re-emergences. If the faction re-emerges, you'll get a NEW army somewhere, plus the old rebels will revert to GH faction.

How many times this happens is all down to your individual game. It's always interesting to have the whole map revealed (.matteosartori. cheat code) at emergence time, just to keep an eye on them - or flood the area with agents so you can see without having to use the cheat....

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Noted.

However, ( as specified ) a second Horde appeared in Georgia...

This Horde was different to the first Horde as it had less actual Mongols and included some Artillery ( Bombards ).
Note that this second Horde did not move into Georgia , but, like the first Horde they just appeared. After appearing, most of the stacks disappeared ( moved ) to Khazar province.

To date, all of the Mongols remain as Mongols and have not gone Rebel anywhere ( so no re-emergence has occurred ).

Therefore, my question remains unanswered...

[ I.E. Can anyone out there tell me how many Horde "waves" will appear during the game ? ]

[ NB : The first "Horde" arrived ( in multiple provinces ) in approx. 1228. The second "Horde" arrived ( again in multiple provinces ) in approx. 1235. Perchance my term "Horde" may be better stated as "Wave"... ]

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This Horde was different to the first Horde as it had less actual Mongols and included some Artillery ( Bombards ).
Note that this second Horde did not move into Georgia , but, like the first Horde they just appeared. After appearing, most of the stacks disappeared ( moved ) to Khazar province.

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In that case it sounds more like a loyalist revolt, if it had less (fewer?) Mongol units in it. Original Horde stacks often include some artillery but only organ guns and mortars, not bombards. Depending on location, the loyalist revolts usually tend to contain a high proportion of regular archers and spearmen, and sometimes urban militia.

Or put it another way - in the best part of 13 years playing this game I have NEVER seen any Mongol armies appear that aren't either a) the original emergence; b) a re-emergence; or c) a loyalist revolt. In every case there should be an event parchment telling you what is happening during the end-of-turn reporting phase. Again, it's something unpredictable beyond the in-game conditions.

I have the original v2.01 VI install - if you're playing a more recent edition (Gold or the new Steam version) there may be some differences I haven't encountered, of course.

Did anyone actually see the Horde move further than the plains around Khazar? Do they actually advance to Bohemia at least?

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Did anyone actually see the Horde move further than the plains around Khazar? Do they actually advance to Bohemia at least?

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I witnessed a Mongol resurrection in Brandenburg which means they once owned it.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

In that case it sounds more like a loyalist revolt, if it had less (fewer?) Mongol units in it. Original Horde stacks often include some artillery but only organ guns and mortars, not bombards. Depending on location, the loyalist revolts usually tend to contain a high proportion of regular archers and spearmen, and sometimes urban militia.

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Aside of one or two Peasant units, the units were still those that usually come with the Mongols ( i.e. Steppe HC and Alan Mercs. ) ; there were just more of them than turned up around 1228...

[ Re the Bombards, I may be incorrect here as they may well have been Mortars. Apologies. ]

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Or put it another way - in the best part of 13 years playing this game I have NEVER seen any Mongol armies appear that aren't either a) the original emergence; b) a re-emergence; or c) a loyalist revolt. In every case there should be an event parchment telling you what is happening during the end-of-turn reporting phase. Again, it's something unpredictable beyond the in-game conditions.

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There have been no event parchments other than the first...

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I have the original v2.01 VI install - if you're playing a more recent edition (Gold or the new Steam version) there may be some differences I haven't encountered, of course.

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Mine is the Original Gold Edition ( MTW +VI combined ) @ v. 2.01.



NB : I note from a Search of the Website that someone stated there were 3 ( or 4 ) Waves of Mongols entering the Map.

[ I.E. 3 ( or 4 ) Groups ( Hordes ) which arrived in each of their entry provinces, but during different Years. ]

I was really just trying to tie down the actual number of Waves...

[ Perchance you view all of the Waves as simply the original Emergence irrespective of the Year/s in which they arrive. I tend to view Groups which arrive in different ( non consecutive ) years as separate Hordes / Waves. :yes: ]

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Did anyone actually see the Horde move further than the plains around Khazar? Do they actually advance to Bohemia at least?

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They once followed me into Britain. I noticed that they have a huge tendency to go after the human player if they have an eastern kingdom so I kept moving westward and they kept following me. Love the game but the way the Mongols were handled really irritates me.

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I was really just trying to tie down the actual number of Waves...

[ Perchance you view all of the Waves as simply the original Emergence irrespective of the Year/s in which they arrive. I tend to view Groups which arrive in different ( non consecutive ) years as separate Hordes / Waves. ]

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No, I'm counting the same way - IF I'd ever seen the Mongols doing what you describe, then I would regard it as separate waves - but I have never, ever, ever seen more than one wave in any game.... Perhaps I just kill them (or the Khan) off too quickly ~D

I usually try to position myself for an early bridge defence battle, with lots of arbs and halbs, with the intention of killing the Khan, whether or not I can win the battle. My second line of defence is as many princesses as I can find.

@K9 - yes, they do seem hard-wired to go for the human player, if they can 'see' you on the map - even if you're a harder target than the AI faction on their opposite border. I've had at least one game when they've made it all the way to Ireland (can't remember who I was playing though, maybe Almos)

Hi All

Did anyone actually see the Horde move further than the plains around Khazar? Do they actually advance to Bohemia at least?

I can recall defending the Polish heartland provinces against a still very formidable Mongol faction - i.e., plenty of MHC companies - over a period of several years.

Best regards

VictorGB
Sapere aude
Horace

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

No, I'm counting the same way - IF I'd ever seen the Mongols doing what you describe, then I would regard it as separate waves - but I have never, ever, ever seen more than one wave in any game.... Perhaps I just kill them (or the Khan) off too quickly ~D

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Hmmm - OK...

Still, I appear to have have seen two Waves ( to date ) in my game.

Does anyone else know if any more are likely ???

[ They are not just targeting me either, as they have taken a number of the Russian provinces and are at war with the Poles, the Russians and the Turks ( myself ). They are also now at the edge of the ( smallish ) Hungarian Empire. The Golden Horde Mongols own 10 provinces in my game : Georgia, Kazar, Volga-Bulgaria, Moscovy, Ryazan, Pereyaslavl, Crimea, Kiev, Chernigov and Moldovia. ]

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Originally Posted by Trapped in Samsara

Hi All

Did anyone actually see the Horde move further than the plains around Khazar? Do they actually advance to Bohemia at least?

I can recall defending the Polish heartland provinces against a still very formidable Mongol faction - i.e., plenty of MHC companies - over a period of several years.

Best regards

VictorGB
Sapere aude
Horace

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Hi there VictorGB,

I had that one as well, defended Poland against the Hordes with the HRE - biggest battle ever, and I autoresolved it because it would have taken me over 2-3 hours. ABout 6-8000 troops on mine and they had around 6000 or so, if I recall correctly.

Massive numbers. :knight:

Bet you saved first! :)

I cringe at doing that - AI is so unpredictable - once had a single commanders escort vs a single low grade archer and the archer won. All I can think happened is the general set there while the archer fired away (but. I'm not even sure the AI fires arrows at all).