Hi all,
Imagawa is probably among my least favorite and least played Clans. Maybe not so much because I dislike their starting positions or their intended strategy, but because I feel like I've never played them the way they are intended. I don't use ninja's or shinobi much in any campaign. I always play a bit of diplomacy, but don't think too much about it. I always focus on the same: Income, high quality unit production, and which areas are strategic to conquer or to put up a defense. Imagawa campaign seems to be intended to require more diplomacy, and incentives use of Ninja's and Shinobi (lower costs, start with Ninja House).
My last Imagawa campaign (Expert, Sengoku Jidai), I trained two more SA in Totomi, before shipping all my troops to Hizen and burning down everything in the East. That funded improved farms and some troop production in the South. I crushed Shimazu and proceeded to play as if it was a Shimazu campaign (except without the focus on No-Dachi). I might as well play Shimazu in the first place, or play those first few years of Imagawa, and then just call it quits. Not sure if I ever did a succesful Expert campaign keeping both fronts, but I definitely never did a succesful Expert campaign using a lot of Ninja's and Shinobi instead of my regular strategies.
Now, how do I change this? Simply forcing myself to pump out Ninja's and Shinobi, while I use my regular stratgies to conquer Japan (albeit on a slightly decreased budget), isn't what I'm looking for. I might as well come up with any type of arbitrary financial handicap (e.g. always set Taxes to Very Low). I want to actually use the agents as vital part of my strategy. But is that even possible? Let me think out loud for a few moments on their uses.
- Emissaries
1) Propose ceasefires, propose alliances. When successful, might deter other Clans from attacking you. And might cause them to join your attacks on common enemies. I would love to know how big the effect is on the likelihood of Clans attacking you. I know it doesn't do much if you're the only neighbor they have left, but when they have several options, could this turn you from their most likely target to their least likely target? Perhaps. I do get the impression they guard shared borders less well if you're allied. This could be potentially be used (or perhaps, abused), to 'weaken' each Clan before you play to invade their territory. You could attempt to attack regions together (ie ally with Takeda, then attack Shinano), and ensure that Takeda sacrifices most of his army in the battle. That could set you up to take Shinano much more easily, or to retreat and attack Takeda instead (if he's been thoroughly suicidal).
2) Spying. I tend to prefer Border Watch Towers over Emissaries, but I do prefer Emissaries over Shinobi (or Ninja's). I definitely do get some value from Spying, as I frequently adjust what troops I bring for a fight, based on their army composition. However, that's still very much the same as what I always do in campaigns.
3) Bribing armies. Never used it much, it seems ridiculously expensive (much cheaper to train the troops yourself). Might be an interesting Challenge though. Focus hard on income early on, and expand by bribing armies instead of developing your own troop production? Is it even possible? It is just too expensive?
- Shinobi
1) Counterespionage (1/2). Kills enemy Shinobi and Ninja's, preventing them from spying on you. I think this is largely useless, because for one thing, they will mostly spy on you with Border Watch Towers and Emissaries anyway. For another, I have my doubt on much spying helps the AI.
2) Counterespionage (2/2). Kills enemy Shinobi, preventing them from causing revolts. I don't think the AI has ever successfully used Shinobi to cause revolts in my regions. But I could be wrong, I do get revolts sometimes.
3) Spying (1/2). See Emissaries, which I prefer for this purpose. Shinobi often get killed for free.
4) Spying (2/2). Travel to enemy regions with few or no troops, to cause revolts. I have used this tactic from time to time, especially with large groups (4-10) Shinobi, especially later on in a campaign when a very strong enemy Clan controls a large area. I move into his 'safe regions', and cause 1-2 revolts every turn by moving around the Shinobi. It never felt very strong to me. I do sometimes cause the enemy to lose a few regions, but the revolts are quite small. Often they don't conquer a region, and if they do, they're wiped out again soon after. It can however cause the loss of many buildings, sometimes in highly developed troop production centers. It might be especially strong in regions like Kii or Kaga. But could this ever be successful enough to decimate entire clans?
- Ninja's
1) Counterespionage. See Shinobi. Even worse, as Ninja's are more expensive.
2) Eliminating Geisha. Rarely ever necessary, I nearly always finish campaigns before any Clan manages to train one. At that point, (well-trained) Ninja's become essential for your survival. Unless victory is near, or you're willing and able to produce your own Geisha.
3) Eliminating strong generals. Likely quite valuable. Killing a 2/3 star General clearly decreases his army in value, killing a 4/5 star General even more so. It seems very hard to do though, especially 4/5 star Generals.
4) Eliminating generals before a battle. If done successfully in the same turn, the army's morale is supposedly decreased. I wonder if anyone knows how much that actually is? Equivalent to losing the General during battle? Equivalent to being shot by Teppo? Equivalent to being surrounded, or losing half the unit? If it's substantial, I could see a campaign where I spend less on armies, and more on killing enemy generals to decrease bonus honor and decrease morale. --- Even crazier, as part of such a strategy, you could field insane armies of mostly Teppo (for their effect on Morale), Battlefield Ninja's (to attempt to assassinate the new general during battle), and Cavalry, to chase routing troops. But I guess, even if you kill every 2+ Star General you would encounter in battle, some units will be produced with Honor 2-3, and it will be hard to rout them regardless.
5) Opening the gates during a castle siege. If I'm not mistaken, this results in an automatic win for whatever army you have in the region. Never used it (after a few attempts long ago), I prefer just waiting out the siege. That's zero losses, and you need an army in the region for a bit anyway, because of population loyalty. Plus, even if it were useful and doable, it'd mean I'd still be largely using my regular strategies, except a little more efficient in ending sieges. --- I just tried it, just in case. Had a siege on a Fortress, with 80 men remaining, having 1020 mostly strong/expensive in the region. Success chance of 50% for Honor 3 Ninja's. When one succeeded, I automatically captured the castle, taking 68 losses in the process (small numbers from each unit). I wonder if you could make this more efficient by leaving something like an army of 60 YA in the region...? If the win is indeed guaranteed, doing this would greatly decrease the potential for losses. Perhaps the losses are actually determined as a set % of your troops in the region (ie the less troops the better)?
6) Eliminating Clans (partially). Assassinate a Daimyo or his heirs to end a Clan, or bring them one step closer.
7) Eliminating Emissaries/Priests. In a short trial Campaign I just started, I did notice I could effectively stall my enemies from forging alliances. My two starting Ninja's must've killed 5 or so Emissaries in the first few years. The only Clan that managed to successfully propose alliances was Shimazu (to Mori and Uesugi, iirc). This might be especially interesting, considering the observations in this old thread. One of the posters mentioned he took control of Uesugi regions and forces by allying and then assassinating them. That makes me wonder: Can this strategy be pursued with any significant chance of success? Even better, can I do it to Uesugi first, and proceed do to it to others? That would be a radically different way to win the game.
Interested to hear if and how people use the above capabilities of the agents. And if you think they can be the main factor in your victory. For instance, could I survive without producing much troops and conquering many regions? Could I pump out enough ninja's to assassinate all other Daimyo's, before being defeated by their growing military?
Thinking of setting up a Challenge like: Win an Imagawa Campaign on Expert (let's assume either Sengoku Jidai or 1580), with victory condition "Eliminate your rival Clans" enabled, with an added handicap:
A) Without ever attacking any region in the conventional sense. To conquer additional territory, you can ally Clans and assassinate their leaders, or bribe regions.
B) Without increasing the quality of produced troops, i.e. you're only allowed regular Archery Dojos, Spear Dojos, Horse Dojos, Sword Dojos and Buddhist Temples. No upgraded version, no Armories, no Swordsmiths. If you conquer regions with such buildings, burn them down instantly. This might tip the balance in favor of using agents, because your armies will be unusually weak. You can bribe high quality troops, however.
C) Without training troops in any regions other than one region you designate as your troop production HQ (i.e. Totomi). Similarly, this might tip the balance in favor of using agents, but I wonder if the effect is strong enough.
D) Without (intentionally) declaring war against any other Clan, and forcing yourself to constantly attempt to establish ceasefires and/or alliances with every living Clan. So, start by minding your own business, forging alliances and attempting to assassinate people. Let's say Takeda invades Suruga. Defend the region, if you can. Send an Emissary to attempt to establish a ceasefire. If it fails, feel free to invade his regions. If it succeeds, attempt to establish an alliance. Back to minding your own business. Not sure how much of an effect these rules would have, compared to my regular playstyle. It might end up being you vs. 1-3 very strong Clans, who will insist on fighting you no matter what, and won't want ceasefires anymore.
Interested to hear if anyone ever played in a way similar to one of the proposed challenges, or which you think are possible to win, if you have any tips, or which one(s) you would most like to see me try? =]
:bow:
