Mori Guide

Hello folks!

I'm in the mood for writing another guide so without further ado let's talk about some Mori.

Clan Mori is a faction that I consider to be in the middle of the pack when it comes to campaign difficulty. To their south lies Kyushu which is held by the Shimazu and Imagawa. To their east lies Shikoku which is held by rebels who will eventually come to field powerful armies thanks to their legendary sword dojo in Tosa. And to the north lies Clan Oda and more rebels and most of the rebels in central Honshu will have warrior monks. Not to forget the Takeda outpost that has imbedded itself right in the middle of Mori lands hugging the eastern coast of southern Honshu.

Getting rid of the Takeda is easy enough to do on turn 1 and this makes the opening move rather simple. It's the rest of Mori's opening that I found to be rather tricky when I was trying to get the hang of this clan. The timing is really important when dealing with each front because your territory is too long to be quickly switching from one front to the other. To make matters worse clan Mori happens to be the poorest clan in the beginning of the campaign. This makes early game port prioritization really difficult because they're so expensive. The next decision is to decide which of either Tajima or Sanuki should be taken as well on turn 1. You'll have enough armies to take one more province in addition to Takeda's three territories. You'll technically be able to take Sanuki and Tajima on turn 1 but with your forces spread that thin you'll find that keeping population loyalty high is next to impossible. Sanuki is a tempting target because of it's 380 koku farm yield. Tajima in comparison is rather poor but it does grant +1 honor to any shinobi that are trained there. Now I love using shinobi and I like getting them as early in the campaign as possible, especially when there's going to be a rapid advance followed up by some unhappy provinces. If you prefer taking Sanuki on turn 1 I totally understand but I'll go for Tajima first every time.

The opening strategy that I've decided on is this: invade the three Takeda lands plus Tajima on turn 1 and finish off the garrison in Aki on turn 2. Start shuffling forces towards Suo and Iwami in preparation for taking Nagato off of the Shimazu. Limiting the southern border to a one province frontier is too beneficial to not get that done as soon as possible. The other half of my forces will move towards Kawachi but I don't want to have to go to war with Oda to get it. My emissary will already be on his way to arrange an alliance with lord Oda. He always ends up in the fight for his life against a nest of angry warrior monks and he'll be glad to have the alliance. Kawachi and Yamashiro will usually trade hands a few times, make sure that you're ready to attack Kawachi once the rebels have it. Kawachi is key, it's rich farm yield plus it's defensible river makes it a prime territory that helps me hold my northern border while I clean up the rest of southern Japan.

You'll usually have to build up your forces a bit before you can take on the rebels in Tosa. This is okay because now with Takeda gone and Nagato and Kawachi in your possession you'll have time. The build up will allow you to reach warrior monks and yari cavalry which will help you take Kyushu. Once Kyushu is yours you can push on through central Japan and reach the defensible line of Owari, Mino and Echizen. While playing as the Mori I don't mind betraying lord Oda but I find in many cases either the rebels have devoured him or he's already sent assassins after me which justifies the betrayal from a roleplaying perspective. Once I've reached the Owari-Mino-Echizen line I'll usually slow down a bit just like with my Shimazu campaign. Sure I could continue the blitz but I like going into the end game with some decent armies and I like to give the A.I. a chance to build up as well.

Here's a summarized turn by turn breakdown of my opening for anyone who's interested in the nitty gritty.

Turn 1) I'll start by invading Aki with the SA and YA from both Suo and Iwami. I know that leaves those provinces undefended but here's a secret, Shimazu is led by a very passive Daimyo at the start. He won't attack those provinces, at least not right away. Actually it makes sense, those provinces are too poor to be worth his time and he'd probably struggle with population loyalty anyway. Moving on I'll also attack Bingo with 2 YS from Izumo and 1 YS from Hoki. I'll also attack Bitchu from Mimasaka with my Daimyo, YS and SA. Finally I'll also attack Tajima with YS from Inaba and SA from Harima. Then I'll build a mine in Harima and I'll train a YA.

During the end turn Takeda will defend Aki with 1 YS and 1 SA. This is an easy battle I can usually kill most of theirs and lose very little of mine. Takeda will retreat from Bingo and then defend Bitchu with 1 CA. Again this is easy, just charge your Daimyo after him and have your spears and archers following up as fast as possible. Tajima is defended by 1 YA, they'll hide in a forest but you'll still be able to kill most of them with arrows before they flee.

Turn 2) Keep the emissary in the Kawachi area for now, it's important to have eyes on the province so that you know what units the rebel army has once they are in control. Move YA from Harima to Tajima to help with population loyalty. Move YA from Mimasaka to Harima. Attack the garrison in Aki. Train YA and build a castle in Tajima.

Turn 3) An average harvest with taxes set to very low will net you a treasury of 979. It's pretty bad but it can only get better from here! This is enough money to build a spear dojo in Aki plus a tea house in Tajima once the castle is complete plus 4 YA. The rest of this turn's moves involve a bit of shuffling forces around to cover for low population loyalty and undefended borders. I'll move 1 YA from Aki into Suo and another YA from Aki into Iwami. I'll move a YS from Bingo into Aki. Daimyo and SA from Bitchu into Bizen. I'll leave the 3 star general SA in Aki to lead my southern forces but I'll start moving the other SA in Aki north to help in the fight for Kawachi.

Turn 4) Start building the tea house in Tajima and train YA. Move SA and YS from Tajima into Harima. Move Daimyo plus 2 SA from Bizen into Harima and prepare to attack Kawachi as soon as the rebels take it. In addition to those moves I'll also move the SA from Bingo into Bitchu, YA from Mimasaka into Bitchu, YS from Bingo into Aki and YS from Aki into Suo.

Turn 5) During my test playthrough for this guide the rebels have taken Kawachi during that last end turn. However their forces are too strong (3 WM, 3 SA) so I'll have to wait. In the meantime I'll move my SA + YS from Bitchu into Bizen, YS from Bizen into Harima, YA from Mimasaka into Bizen and YS from Aki into Iwami. I'll also train a YA in Aki and I'll save the rest of my money to train a shinobi next turn.

Turn 6) During this turn in my test run the rebels have left Kawachi defended with only 1 SA and 2 WM, the time to strike is now! I'll attack Kawachi with my Daimyo + 3 SA and 2 YS. Now I'll finally send my emissary out for his real purpose which is to propose an alliance with lord Oda. Also I'll move my SA and YS from Bizen into Harima and my SA from Aki into Suo. Then I'll train a shinobi.

The battle for Kawachi turns out really easy as long as your fine with baiting WM into your archer fire on the bridge.

Turn 7) An average harvest with the taxes set to very low is now 1,180 koku. Now I'll send my first shinobi towards Takeda's previous territory to help with population loyalty and hopefully relieve some units of garrison duty. Also I'll attack Awaji with my Daimyo from Kawachi plus the YS and SA from Harima. Then I'll build castles in Kawachi and Harima and train YA in Mimasaka and Aki plus another shinobi.

During the defense of Awaji the rebels flee!

Turn 8) Here's where I'll declare war on Shimazu by attacking Nagato with SA, YA and YS from Suo plus YS and YA form Iwami. Then I'll move 1 YA from Aki into Iwami and another YA from Aki into Suo. Then I'll move a YS from Bingo into Iwami, YA from Mimasaka into Bizen, YA from Tajima into Harima and a YA from Harima into Awaji. Then I'll train a YA in Mimasaka and I'll build a castle in Awaji. The second shinobi that I've trained will be sent towards my Daimyo's force. He'll need all the help he can get with subduing conquered rebel territory!

During the end turn Shimazu has defended Nagato with 2 YA and 1 SA, again this is a rather easy battle. I pillaged 200 koku from the the victory in Nagato and then Oda accepts my alliance, all good news!

Turn 9) Here I'll attack the garrison in Nagato's castle to end the siege. Also I'll move the YS and YA from Iwami into Nagato and I'll move the YA from Suo back into Aki to help with population loyalty. Then I'll move a YA from Bitchu to Bingo to also help with population loyalty. I'll start moving my emissary back towards Shikoku to help scout for my Daimyo's army. Then I'll attack Sanuki with my Daimyo + SA and YS from Awaji + 2 YA from Bizen. Move YA from Mimasaka to Bizen. Train YA in Mimasaka and Aki.

During the end turn I defeat the castle garrison in Nagato and the rebels flee Sanuki.

Turn 10) The rebels have abandoned Awa! So I'll attack Awa with a SA and YS from Sanuki. Then I'll move a YA from Aki into Suo, a YA from Bingo into Aki, a YA from Bizen into Sanuki and I'll finish up by moving a YS from Kawachi to Awaji to help out with population loyalty.

Turn 11) An average harvest set at very low taxes will net me a handsome 2,412 koku! Hey now we're going places! With this treasury I'll have enough to build castles in Sanuki and Awa plus 6 YS, 2 SA and a 3rd shinobi.

This feels like a decent start and now I can start to build up and focus on taking the rest of Shikoku and eventually Kyushu.

Obviously I don't expect everyone to read all of that, that would be as tedious to read as it was to write. However I wanted to go into a little more detail with my Mori turn by turn guide because I know that this constant expansion can be tricky while also keeping population loyalty high. If there's anyone out there who's having difficulty with their first Mori playthrough I hope that his can help provide an outline and show that it is possible to expand relatively quickly while still eliminating any chance of a rebellion occurring.

Having a northern border of Kawachi - Harima - Tajima plus an alliance with lord Oda will help secure the north. Having a one province border on your southern frontier with Nagato plus a two province border in the east with Sanuki and Awa all by turn 11 will go a long ways towards providing a relatively safe place with which you can build up a little and get ready for your next expansion.

Shimazu is a lot easier because by turn 11 they've only taken 4 provinces (in my Shimazu guide). Mori by comparison has taken 9 provinces by turn 11! That's a lot of conquered people to subdue.

That ends my opening breakdown of the Mori campaign but I will leave you with a few notes to consider.

By turn 15 you'll either want to start investing more into your economy or teching up to WM and YC, or you can take a half and half approach. I'll suggest building a mine in Aki and building a port in either Bizen or Harima. Both of those provinces have natural harbors which makes building a ports in those provinces cheaper. Eventually you'll also want a port in Nagato but that can wait a bit until your economy is doing better. Also on the subject of the economy, farming upgrades should be built in Bitchu, Kawachi and Sanuki.

Eventually I'll switch Mimasaka over to WM production and I'll switch Aki over to YC production. This means that I'll have to move archer and spear production to different provinces. Luckily as the Mori you'll have a million iron sands deposits so you can have armor upgrades nearly everywhere in your home provinces. I'll choose Iwami for my alternate spear dojo site and Hoki or Inaba for my alternate archer dojo site.

On the subject of army composition I prefer to use a different composition for each clan that I play just for an extra bit of roleplay plus some challenge and variety. For each clan I'll use a standard base of four units (YS,YA,SA and YC) plus two extra special units. I've taken inspiration from the starting units each clan receives in the 1580 campaign and for Mori that'll be Warrior Monks and Naginata! It's definitely a fearsome army! My exact army composition is 4 SA (including my heir/general), 4 naginata, 4 WM, 3 YS and 1 YC.

On the subject of the Mori clan itself your heirs will be fewer than Shimazu's, they'll come of age later than Shimazu's and they'll be less capable in combat. So it's important to keep them alive once they do come of age. This is all balanced out by the fact that Mori Motonari himself starts the campaign as a 5 star general! In addition to that Mori's unit generals are quite a bit better than Shimazu's as you'll come across quite a few 3 stars and even a couple 4 stars in the mid game.

One last piece of advice, don't totally neglect your northern border. I know it seem safe because Oda has his hands full with the Ikko-Ikki Warrior Monks in central Japan but send a unit or two up to your northern border every once in a while to help bolster your defenses in Kawachi, Harima and Tajima.

I'm going to end the guide here so let me know if you have any comments, questions or suggestions.

Thanks for reading!

A good strategy, and well thought out. IIRC, Mori collectively, has the poorest starting provinces (koku-wise) of any clan, which makes the juggling act between building infrastructure, and raising armies, a difficult one. Speaking of difficulty, you haven't mentioned the difficulty setting you play at. That's not meant as criticism, but it does affect gameplay, especially the early portion of a campaign.

It's pretty cool that you stick to traditional troops that might be used by a particular clan. I did that myself for awhile, but as I continually ratcheted up the difficulty level, I made the decision to play with units I was most adept at handling, and which were the most fun.

I'm surprised that you haven't come up against the "Hojo Horde" phenomenon while playing southern clans. That's the one caveat to an easier starting position. It gives the AI plenty of time to develop the Hojo Clan, and by the time you get to Central Japan, a player more often than not, starts to see those ridiculous endless stacks known infamously as The Hojo Horde.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ct_mu1G5led8-B

One last thing, you shouldn't ignore a province bonus, IMHO. Satsuma will still give you the +1 honor bonus for No Dachi, as an example, though you pay full price for recruitment if you are not Shimazu.

Hey ReluctantSamurai!

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A good strategy, and well thought out. IIRC, Mori collectively, has the poorest starting provinces (koku-wise) of any clan, which makes the juggling act between building infrastructure, and raising armies, a difficult one. Speaking of difficulty, you haven't mentioned the difficulty setting you play at. That's not meant as criticism, but it does affect gameplay, especially the early portion of a campaign.

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Ah yes, I play at expert difficulty and yeah it makes a big difference. I wanted these guides to be applicable to any preferred difficulty.

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It's pretty cool that you stick to traditional troops that might be used by a particular clan. I did that myself for awhile, but as I continually ratcheted up the difficulty level, I made the decision to play with units I was most adept at handling, and which were the most fun.

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I'll admit that I've been pretty stubborn when it comes to trying to develop unique playstyles for each faction. I do purposefully handicap myself in an attempt roleplay. This mindset has been born from my Shogun focused youtube channel because it is my desire to present a fun variety of outcomes to a modern audience. I'm sure this will change once I start on the Era's campaigns. As you've mentioned before there are some real challenging factions in the 1580 campaign and I for one can't imagine winning as the Oda while playing with any handicaps.

I've tried not to let this greatly affect the advice I give in these guides. For example the Shimazu should really convert to Christianity because of the economy boost. I could even go so far as to say objectively every clan should convert to Christianity for that same reason. But can I in good conscience recommend a Mori player to forgo Warrior Monks and turn Christian? No I cannot, that just feels wrong. And I am aware that I can technically build a Buddhist Temple before the Portuguese arrive enabling me to both be able to train Warrior Monks and develop an uber economy but that also feels wrong. You'll see that this gets worse in future guides when I attempt to hang on to all of my territories while playing as the Imagawa and Tadekda :dizzy2:

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I'm surprised that you haven't come up against the "Hojo Horde" phenomenon while playing southern clans. That's the one caveat to an easier starting position. It gives the AI plenty of time to develop the Hojo Clan, and by the time you get to Central Japan, a player more often than not, starts to see those ridiculous endless stacks known infamously as The Hojo Horde.

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Frankly I'm also surprised that I haven't come across the Hojo horde. I mean I know that it's a lot different (less) then it was before it was patched but still I had read so much about it and I've never come across it. Never. I feel like in my playthroughs with the southern clans it's always Uesugi that comes out on top in the north. Now it may be because I've been aware of this eventuality that I've strived to play the southern clans as quickly as possible to make sure the northern hordes don't appear.. :shrug:

Just for the sake of documentation during the last Shimazu campaign I had reached the Echizen - Mino - Owari line by 1547. And during my current Mori campaign I have reached the Echizen - Mino - Owari line by 1551. So perhaps this is just too fast for the north be build up. With that said, in this current Mori campaign Uesugi was sending Geisha's after me by year 1547 which has really taken me by surprise. Needless to say I now have zero heirs (despite immense shinobi escorts) and an aging Mori Motonari running and hiding for his life :wall: I believe you've mentioned that you just delete the geisha's from the game files but again, I'm playing for youtube here so I'm going for a unmodded experience.

As always I appreciate the feedback :bow:

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As you've mentioned before there are some real challenging factions in the 1580 campaign and I for one can't imagine winning as the Oda while playing with any handicaps.

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I recall a player once trying an Oda 1580 campaign with no Teppo, and a strict limit on Yari units. IIRC, it did not end well...:inquisitive: That doesn't mean it can't be done, but I play to have fun, and if playing becomes a matter of technical proficiency, I want no part of it.

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You'll see that this gets worse in future guides when I attempt to hang on to all of my territories while playing as the Imagawa and Tadekda

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A fun diversion, when you get bored with a more traditional approach for these two, is to retreat completely from Central Japan to your southern holdings, and start from there.

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Just for the sake of documentation during the last Shimazu campaign I had reached the Echizen - Mino - Owari line by 1547. And during my current Mori campaign I have reached the Echizen - Mino - Owari line by 1551.

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You haven't mentioned what happened after that, because getting into the Takeda/Hojo/Uesugi heartlands is where the difficulty REALLY begins for a southern clan, IMHO...:shrug:

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I believe you've mentioned that you just delete the geisha's from the game files but again, I'm playing for youtube here so I'm going for a unmodded experience.

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You cannot simply delete geisha game files. It's done by editing the building preference file for the Geisha House so that the AI never builds one. Of course if you renege on the "agreement" and create a geisha yourself, the AI will bump the Geisha House to the top of it's building preference list....

There was always a debate on geisha/no geisha, but the addition of an almost unstoppable super assassin (though traditional means of assassination WAS common in feudal Japan) was a) not historical, and b) super cheesy. If your approach is one of historical adherence to tradition, I'm surprised you tolerate them. I played with them for awhile, but again playing a game is supposed to be fun, and having hours of effort wiped out (literally & figuratively) because some overzealous dev thought geisha's would be cool, just didn't cut it after awhile, so I got rid of them and went beck to winning or losing on the battlefield rather than the bedroom. When you get to playing 1580 campaigns, you will see geisha's within the first campaign year as infrastructure is well advanced for all clans.

In my first Oda 1580 campaign, I had just won an epic battle against the Hojo that literally took nearly two hours of real time, when one of his geisha appears and kills my victorious heir (there were so many Hojo stacks moving into Mikawa that I hadn't noticed her slipping in with the troops). That was the last straw, and geisha's were banned after that.

And BTW, shinobi escorts are futile, in the end. They can only delay the inevitable. You have to have an Honor 5/6 Ninja to kill her, or you spam a horde of inexperienced ones to throw at her. One of them will eventually get lucky but you run the risk of bumping her honor level so high from all the previous failures, that even an Honor 6 Ninja will have a near impossible task....:no:

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You haven't mentioned what happened after that, because getting into the Takeda/Hojo/Uesugi heartlands is where the difficulty REALLY begins for a southern clan, IMHO...:shrug:

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I haven't found this to be the case. If I can secure this line before the north has been consolidated by one clan I tend to have plenty of time to build up a solid late game economy and military. Only once did I have to hold that line against a fairly aggressive push from Uesugi. The rest of the time it's me that making the push into northern Japan unprovoked. I suppose I haven't written about what happens next because it seems relatively straightforward.

I'm curious now, I know a lot of you original Shoggy players play with the battle timer off. I play with it on because on the rare occasion that I'm on the defense and the A.I. doesn't actually attack my position I don't want to be forced into a loss because of a bug. This usually happens on Owari (I've read that the buildings on that map mess up the A.I. pathfinding) but this has also happened on Shinano once. It's on these occasions that I'm glad that I can simply fast forward time to end the battle. In the times that I have withdrawn troops from a battle so that I could receive reinforcements my reinforcements took so long to arrive and when they do arrive it's at random areas of the map. The A.I. on the other hand seems to get their reinforcements fairly soon after having their units run off the map. This has all led me to conclude that I'd rather not deal with the reinforcement system and if this is what I'm missing out on by turning the battle timer off then c'est la vie :shrug: However you're making me wonder if this is actively dumbing down my campaigns and making them easier. Well I wouldn't want that if that's the case. Do you have an opinion on this?

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You cannot simply delete geisha game files. It's done by editing the building preference file for the Geisha House so that the AI never builds one. Of course if you renege on the "agreement" and create a geisha yourself, the AI will bump the Geisha House to the top of it's building preference list....

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haha clever computer

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There was always a debate on geisha/no geisha, but the addition of an almost unstoppable super assassin (though traditional means of assassination WAS common in feudal Japan) was a) not historical, and b) super cheesy. If your approach is one of historical adherence to tradition, I'm surprised you tolerate them. I played with them for awhile, but again playing a game is supposed to be fun, and having hours of effort wiped out (literally & figuratively) because some overzealous dev thought geisha's would be cool, just didn't cut it after awhile, so I got rid of them and went beck to winning or losing on the battlefield rather than the bedroom. When you get to playing 1580 campaigns, you will see geisha's within the first campaign year as infrastructure is well advanced for all clans.

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I wouldn't call my approach one of strict historical adherence. It's a bit of mix and match. I prefer my roleplaying to be done on the battlefield and campaign map and not in the game files. With all that said you are making some convincing arguments. And my current Mori campaign has been dicey for sure but hey it makes for good television haha (if I win).

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In my first Oda 1580 campaign, I had just won an epic battle against the Hojo that literally took nearly two hours of real time, when one of his geisha appears and kills my victorious heir (there were so many Hojo stacks moving into Mikawa that I hadn't noticed her slipping in with the troops). That was the last straw, and geisha's were banned after that.

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Now that sucks. Yeah that'd be my last straw too. It'll be a while before I fire up a 1580 campaign but when I do I'll let you know how I feel about this matter. I wouldn't be surprised if my position on geisha's has changed by then.

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And BTW, shinobi escorts are futile, in the end. They can only delay the inevitable. You have to have an Honor 5/6 Ninja to kill her, or you spam a horde of inexperienced ones to throw at her. One of them will eventually get lucky but you run the risk of bumping her honor level so high from all the previous failures, that even an Honor 6 Ninja will have a near impossible task....:no:

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I hadn't even thought of that. My ninja's failures are creating even more powerful geisha's. Ugh, gross. Welp on my current campaign I've had so many ninja's fail that this has probably already happened. My strategy has switched into an even more aggressive one because essentially my goal is to kill off the Uesugi family on the battlefield in the hopes that that will neutralize the geisha (they will stop hunting me right?:embarassed:) I'm off to record another episode right now actually so fingers crossed.

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I know a lot of you original Shoggy players play with the battle timer off

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Timer off, for two reasons:

1.There's nothing worse than trying to hunt down that last broken unit with only a handful of soldiers in it that's hiding in the woods somewhere. Some maps are absolutely huge, made even worse if you have no cavalry to speed up the process. So you've won the battle.....except you haven't cuz' of a busted Ashi unit with 4 men that you can't find before the timer runs out. Even more frustrating is a successful bridge defense against overwhelming odds....except....that pesky Cavalry Archer unit with about 8 horsemen, keeps rallying....and rallying....and re-rallying for the umteenth time, and you have no Yari Cav to kill it or chase it off the field. You lose....even though you've actually won.

2. The really, REALLY, epic battles can take 1-2 hours, player time~:eek:. Now most really big battles can be resolved in 1 hour or less (IIRC 60 min is the max on the clock) but I'm not losing one of those that takes longer because I ran out of an arbitrary set amount of time (and when the AI sends 6-7 full stacks, THAT is going to take longer than 1 hour). I'm surprised you haven't run into the AI cheat where it just waits for you to attack, even if you are on the defensive. Kinda shoots to hell the idea of a bridge defense, no? And really, is there a timekeeper on any real-life battlefield?

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However you're making me wonder if this is actively dumbing down my campaigns and making them easier

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I have no idea if having a timer affects how the AI behaves on the campaign map. It most certainly does on the battle map.

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I play with it on because on the rare occasion that I'm on the defense and the A.I. doesn't actually attack my position I don't want to be forced into a loss because of a bug

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The AI is standing and waiting because you have the timer on. With the timer off, if the AI is the attacker, it will attack.

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With all that said you are making some convincing arguments.

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I can guarantee almost with certainty, that if you lose a hard-fought campaign because of some cheesy gimic like geisha, your next question will be about how to edit that building preference file....~D

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My ninja's failures are creating even more powerful geisha's

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Yep...geisha's gain honor stars the same as ninja's....a successful kill....:7ninja:

If you destroy the clan who commands the geisha, she's gone.

Oh, BTW, there's a map-fix that removes that little hut on the battlefield in Owari that causes AI troops to get hung up. I don't know if it's still hosted here at the Org anymore, but if it's not I have the original file for the new map (it only removes that one building---no other changes). Never had the Owari bug happen on any other map....:shrug:

There's also a patch that fixes the reinforcement bug where enemy reinforcements appear in your rear....rather annoying when you're trying to defend a bridge. If you haven't installed this patch, I highly recommend you do before you play 1580 campaign's. Some of the battles will involve the AI sending 5-10 stacks at a time at you, and you simply will not have enough arrows, bullets, or men to fight that many. You will need your reinforcements.

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1.There's nothing worse than trying to hunt down that last broken unit with only a handful of soldiers in it that's hiding in the woods somewhere. Some maps are absolutely huge, made even worse if you have no cavalry to speed up the process. So you've won the battle.....except you haven't cuz' of a busted Ashi unit with 4 men that you can't find before the timer runs out. Even more frustrating is a successful bridge defense against overwhelming odds....except....that pesky Cavalry Archer unit with about 8 horsemen, keeps rallying....and rallying....and re-rallying for the umteenth time, and you have no Yari Cav to kill it or chase it off the field. You lose....even though you've actually won.

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YC is always the first unit I tech up to for this reason.

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2. The really, REALLY, epic battles can take 1-2 hours, player time~:eek:. Now most really big battles can be resolved in 1 hour or less (IIRC 60 min is the max on the clock) but I'm not losing one of those that takes longer because I ran out of an arbitrary set amount of time (and when the AI sends 6-7 full stacks, THAT is going to take longer than 1 hour). I'm surprised you haven't run into the AI cheat where it just waits for you to attack, even if you are on the defensive. Kinda shoots to hell the idea of a bridge defense, no? And really, is there a timekeeper on any real-life battlefield?

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I haven't faced the 6-7 stacks yet...ever. I'm starting to wonder why. I was thinking it's because I play a fast campaign when I'm playing a southern clan but I've never faced close to that number. Not when I play as the Oda and not when I play a northern clan. Three stacks might be the most I've ever faced at once and sure I'll lose the battle to timeout but I don't see much of an issue with just attacking again the next turn. When I attack into overwhelming numbers I'll just bring the one stack that I intend to use in that battle and I'll leave a reinforcements stack or two in the province I'm attacking from just to fill up my attacking stack in between battles.

And I have run into the A.I. cheat where it waits for me to attack even when I'm on the defensive, that's one of the reasons why I play with the timer on! I'm not leaving this hill or crossing that bridge just because the A.I. doesn't want to come at me. I'd rather run time out and claim victory! What's your solution to this while playing with the timer off?

Also regarding the fact that battles don't have arbitrary time limits, in a way they did. It's my understanding that medieval armies didn't really extend battles into the night all that much simply because commanding an army at night was next to impossible back then. I have simply thought of the battle timer as a day-night cycle anytime my conscious need consoling :yes:

So I've simply streamlined the battle experience by essentially removing my ability to use reinforcements. Just a reminder though that I'll still have a chance to face a second or third wave during one battle with the timer on if I defeated the first wave quickly enough. If I ever see those 6-7 stack armies that you've mentioned I'm sure I'll feel like I'm missing out by not playing out that full epic battle with the timer off.

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The AI is standing and waiting because you have the timer on. With the timer off, if the AI is the attacker, it will attack.

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:dizzy2: I'm confused. Why would the A.I. not attack because the timer is on? They're purposefully taking a defeat.

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I can guarantee almost with certainty, that if you lose a hard-fought campaign because of some cheesy gimic like geisha, your next question will be about how to edit that building preference file....~D

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hahaha :laugh4: yeah no kidding, in that case keep hanging around these forums I'll need you sooner or later. my current campaign is two turns away from either glorious victory or epic fail, i'll know soon enough.

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If you destroy the clan who commands the geisha, she's gone.

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Praise Buddha!

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Oh, BTW, there's a map-fix that removes that little hut on the battlefield in Owari that causes AI troops to get hung up. I don't know if it's still hosted here at the Org anymore, but if it's not I have the original file for the new map (it only removes that one building---no other changes). Never had the Owari bug happen on any other map....:shrug:

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I feel like I've come across that in the download section, I can check again.

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There's also a patch that fixes the reinforcement bug where enemy reinforcements appear in your rear....rather annoying when you're trying to defend a bridge. If you haven't installed this patch, I highly recommend you do before you play 1580 campaign's. Some of the battles will involve the AI sending 5-10 stacks at a time at you, and you simply will not have enough arrows, bullets, or men to fight that many. You will need your reinforcements.

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I'm starting to think I just have to play a 1580 campaign to really get that overwhelming odds feeling. I hadn't heard of this patch though. I'll play my next campaign with the timer off just so I know what we're talking about. I'm thinking about playing as the Hojo, wiping out the Uesugi and then just turtling for a long time just to see what the A.I. can build up to.

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I haven't faced the 6-7 stacks yet...ever. I'm starting to wonder why. [...] Three stacks might be the most I've ever faced at once and sure I'll lose the battle to timeout but I don't see much of an issue with just attacking again the next turn.

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I don't like to lose...~D And I don't want to invite the possibility of my general losing honor... As to why you haven't faced multiple stacks in a single battle...I have no idea...:shrug: I'm probably overstating how much it happens, probably because after awhile I stopped playing all the different eras and played only 1580 campaigns. Slogging through Japan for a Shimazu or Mori campaign just wasn't fun anymore, so it came down to fighting battles....big battles. That tends to happen more in 1580 because every clans infrastructure is well advanced at the start of a game, with at least one province close to maximum development. This means that the AI is raising troops in every province, every turn. And not just Ashi. Some will already have Teppo, and most will be cranking out their specialty unit. Mori will come with lots of WM, Shimazu with ND, Takeda with every type of cavalry, etc, and most will have Swordsmith/Armory bonuses.

Another disadvantage to withdrawing before the timer expires is that it tips your hand to the AI. Make no mistake, the Shogun I AI is smart, as all those who started with Rome TW and then tried Shogun found out. That three stack force you faced the first time could very well become more the next turn. The AI has the advantage on the strategic map because it moves after you have completed your moves. I found this out the hard way when I sent a token force via port attack to whittle down a defending garrison in Tosa during a Takeda SJ campaign. Being a port attack, there's no retreat, so, expecting defeat, I didn't send a high-ranking general. After a couple of attempts, I thought I'd had the garrison whittled down to the point where I sent Number One Son with a full, 16 unit invasion force. Oops...the AI countered by sending over 5000 troops to defend. My heir fought a valiant battle, taking over 4000 heads, but was defeated in the end. I don't recall how long that battle took (edit: I went back to look----almost three hours), but suffice to say it was well beyond the 60 min timer max. Two seasons later, I returned with two full stacks, and avenged my son's loss:evil3: Funny how one can get emotionally involved in Shogun to the point of having to avenge the loss of a fictional character, and remember the campaign and province over 10 years later....:crazy:

You might find this short discussion interesting---most of those participating were in the Legendary Player category (and I was certainly not one of those, never having the chance to play MP against other skilled players):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-original-game

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What's your solution to this while playing with the timer off?

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I don't recall the AI ever sitting and waiting when it was the aggressor, except when it was executing a port attack. I would move a single unit of cavalry forward, and the enemy would flee the battle....cowardly dogs!!! Other times it might try it was in river provinces where it had nowhere near the army necessary to force a crossing. In that case, a single unit crossing the river was usually enough to bait the AI to finally attack.

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Why would the A.I. not attack because the timer is on? They're purposefully taking a defeat.

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My bad...I was referring to siege battles.

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I have simply thought of the battle timer as a day-night cycle anytime my conscious need consoling

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On/Off...it's just a matter of preference. There's no right/wrong to it, so no need to justify it. OTOH, you will never experience "The Thrill of Victory, and The Agony of Defeat" as one popular sports show used to say, for winning against huge odds....:shrug:

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I feel like I've come across that in the download section, I can check again.

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It comes with the Nobunaga's Ambition campaign. You don't have to actually install the campaign, just extract the Owari map and replace it for the old one in your game files. End of bug.

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I hadn't heard of this patch though.

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I have the Sold Out version of the game on disc. It came with that patch already installed. I did not find the stand-alone patch in any d/l here...:shrug:

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I'm thinking about playing as the Hojo, wiping out the Uesugi and then just turtling for a long time just to see what the A.I. can build up to.

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I'm starting to think I just have to play a 1580 campaign to really get that overwhelming odds feeling.

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Your starting date will effect results here. But at least you don't have to face the Hojo Horde....:laugh4: You might want to hold off on an Oda 1580 unless you are extremely confident in your use of Teppo. It can be done without them....so I've heard....but games are for having fun, and I can't imagine it will be fun using SA instead of guns. And besides, historically, it was Oda who developed advanced tactics for using them...think Nagashino:rifle:

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Another disadvantage to withdrawing before the timer expires is that it tips your hand to the AI. Make no mistake, the Shogun I AI is smart, as all those who started with Rome TW and then tried Shogun found out. That three stack force you faced the first time could very well become more the next turn. The AI has the advantage on the strategic map because it moves after you have completed your moves. I found this out the hard way when I sent a token force via port attack to whittle down a defending garrison in Tosa during a Takeda SJ campaign. Being a port attack, there's no retreat, so, expecting defeat, I didn't send a high-ranking general. After a couple of attempts, I thought I'd had the garrison whittled down to the point where I sent Number One Son with a full, 16 unit invasion force. Oops...the AI countered by sending over 5000 troops to defend. My heir fought a valiant battle, taking over 4000 heads, but was defeated in the end. I don't recall how long that battle took (edit: I went back to look----almost three hours), but suffice to say it was well beyond the 60 min timer max. Two seasons later, I returned with two full stacks, and avenged my son's loss:evil3: Funny how one can get emotionally involved in Shogun to the point of having to avenge the loss of a fictional character, and remember the campaign and province over 10 years later....:crazy:

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Oh I bet, this stuff feels real. Those men had families! :cry: And three hours! haha yeah that's the kind of thing I'm missing out on. I'd at least like to experience that once or twice.

I tend to counter the A.I. moving after my turn by attacking multiple provinces at once. Even if a couple attacks are feints made up of a couple units they'll still typically block a couple units from reinforcing the province that is my real target. Sometimes the A.I. will completely abandon a province that is targeted by a feint attack. That gets awkward when I have two units sitting in enemy territory that don't stand a chance of holding onto the land that they took for free. But hey if I can burn down some buildings and get our of there it's all good!

I don't use the port attack though. I do feel like CA meant for it to be in the game. It's just that the A.I. only uses it when it's ...confused I guess? Eh just didn't seem fair to me.

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You might find this short discussion interesting---most of those participating were in the Legendary Player category (and I was certainly not one of those, never having the chance to play MP against other skilled players):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-original-game

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Cool stuff! I always like reading these kinds of threads but I hadn't come across that one. I really like reading the STW, MTW, RTW comparison threads. Reading these really gets the point across that Shogun really captured people lives, imagination, attention for quite a while. It's funny because I've just started playing Total War with Shogun a year ago but I've been watching youtube Total War channels for probably 7-8 years now. So when I finally decided to start actually playing the games I wanted to start with Shogun just because I have an obsession with starting from the beginning. Now through watching youtube vids I had gathered that RTW and M2TW were the ultimate favorites of the series by a long shot. But when I came across these threads that were written when RTW was coming out (16 years ago! :dizzy2:) and I saw how bitter Shoggy and Medieval players were at some of the decisions made with Rome I was shocked. It really seems like a large portion of the Total War community felt like they were being left behind or even betrayed. Personally I can see some good points being made on both sides of the debate (pro RTW and against RTW) but I'd be curious to know if any of these opinions have changed at all.

I mean on one hand RTW is arcadey and ahistorical and the A.I. is dumb and the a lot of the units are silly and some of the mechanics don't work (squalor) but on the other hand RTW really captured the imaginations of a newer generation a lot like STW did for the first generation. In some ways the settings and immersion and music of RTW really feels like magic to some folks.

Anyway I know I got off topic there and I realize that that could be a topic for another thread. But if you have any opinions on the matter I'd be interested to read em.

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On/Off...it's just a matter of preference. There's no right/wrong to it, so no need to justify it. OTOH, you will never experience "The Thrill of Victory, and The Agony of Defeat" as one popular sports show used to say, for winning against huge odds....

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You have a point there. My approach is much more methodical, even slightly dispassionate. I'm not fighting the epic win or lose everything kind of battles, I'm fighting the "I'll eventually whittle you down until you have nothing left" kind of battles.

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It comes with the Nobunaga's Ambition campaign. You don't have to actually install the campaign, just extract the Owari map and replace it for the old one in your game files. End of bug.

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Roger that :2thumbsup:

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I have the Sold Out version of the game on disc. It came with that patch already installed. I did not find the stand-alone patch in any d/l here...:shrug:

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Cool. How much do you want for your copy? :laugh4:

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Your starting date will effect results here. But at least you don't have to face the Hojo Horde....:laugh4: You might want to hold off on an Oda 1580 unless you are extremely confident in your use of Teppo. It can be done without them....so I've heard....but games are for having fun, and I can't imagine it will be fun using SA instead of guns. And besides, historically, it was Oda who developed advanced tactics for using them...think Nagashino:rifle:

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Well I'm quite confidant with the Ol' muzzle loaders actually. But I reckon an Oda 1580 campaign will sort out that overconfidence quick enough :smug:

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I don't use the port attack though. I do feel like CA meant for it to be in the game. It's just that the A.I. only uses it when it's ...confused I guess? Eh just didn't seem fair to me.

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Port attacks were another of those gameplay tactics that always drew a debate. Technically, you use a port attack moving from Bungo to Iyo, or Sanuki to Bizen/Awaji, or Dewa to Sado, etc. What's the difference if you go Mikawa to Satsuma? I've had campaign's where the AI (usually Shimazu) uses the port attack in a coherent way. It's also a way (and a risk) to break a ridiculously fortified front, by going behind or around that front.

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But if you have any opinions on the matter I'd be interested to read em.

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I enjoyed RTW quite a bit. The idiotic units (Head Hurlers???) could be edited out. The biggest problem was the 3D map. The AI just could not cope with all the intricacies and the campaign map was poorly designed (there's a brilliant map making discussion in the RTW forum for identifying and eliminating the problems). My one claim to fame is solving the squalor issue without editing files, adding new buildings designed to counter squalor, etc. You can find those discussions in the RTW Forum under ZPG (Zero Population Growth). My biggest complaint, and this may sound silly, was the way weather was rendered on the battlefield. I mean, you call THAT a thunderstorm??? In Shogun, you could almost feel the peels of thunder, and you couldn't see more than 10-20 yards ahead (that's why the battle of Okehazama remains such a vivid experience). But that was part of the reason players like me just couldn't get emotionally involved with the game. The atmosphere just wasn't as immersive as Shogun.

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You have a point there. My approach is much more methodical, even slightly dispassionate. I'm not fighting the epic win or lose everything kind of battles, I'm fighting the "I'll eventually whittle you down until you have nothing left" kind of battles.

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I don't know how long you've been playing Shoggie, but after you've had dozens and dozens of campaign's that all go pretty much the same way with only slight variations due to clan differences and starting position, what's left? Epic Battles! Your skilled (or unskilled...:laugh4:) use of units and terrain, vs the brute force of the AI. I'll venture that 10 years from now you won't remember a single boring campaign you spent slogging through province after province. But that 2-3 hour epic marathon you engaged in with your rival for control of Shinano.....you'll remember THAT:chucks:

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Well I'm quite confidant with the Ol' muzzle loaders actually. But I reckon an Oda 1580 campaign will sort out that overconfidence quick enough

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Of that you can be sure:laugh4: I just wish I had discovered FRAPS before I played some of my 1580 campaign's, especially my Oda 1580 Nobunaga's Ambition campaign. My AAR for that campaign just doesn't carry the same punch without all the screen shots. I have folders full of FRAPS screen captures for Mongol campaigns and some other misc ones I wrote AAR's for over the years, but I'd trade them all to get back the ones for Nobunaga's Ambition:pray:

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I enjoyed RTW quite a bit. The idiotic units (Head Hurlers???) could be edited out. The biggest problem was the 3D map. The AI just could not cope with all the intricacies and the campaign map was poorly designed (there's a brilliant map making discussion in the RTW forum for identifying and eliminating the problems). My one claim to fame is solving the squalor issue without editing files, adding new buildings designed to counter squalor, etc. You can find those discussions in the RTW Forum under ZPG (Zero Population Growth). My biggest complaint, and this may sound silly, was the way weather was rendered on the battlefield. I mean, you call THAT a thunderstorm??? In Shogun, you could almost feel the peels of thunder, and you couldn't see more than 10-20 yards ahead (that's why the battle of Okehazama remains such a vivid experience). But that was part of the reason players like me just couldn't get emotionally involved with the game. The atmosphere just wasn't as immersive as Shogun.

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I agree wholeheartedly on the weather issue, I mean what were they thinking? The thunderstorm in Shogun knocked my socks off and that was me playing it for the first time in 2019! Also the the mountain sized trees in RTW are absurd.

Solving the squalor issue is quite the achievement. I haven't played RTW yet but I've read up on squalor and it looks like it was poorly implemented. Let's see if I got this right, they tied a population happiness modifier (squalor) to population growth but it can't be capped and the building line that common sense tells you to use to combat squalor (public health) ends up working against you because it increases population growth. Did I get that right? Because that's really silly.

Anyhoo this is all off topic at this point. I just figured I'd pop in a say "hi". It's been a long time since I've been active on any forums so I'll apologize for the late response.

I'm about to start recording an Oda campaign so I'll be putting up an Oda guide in the next week or so. Just Sengoku Jidai though, sorry no 1580 :sweatdrop:

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Solving the squalor issue is quite the achievement. I haven't played RTW yet but I've read up on squalor and it looks like it was poorly implemented.

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There's a current thread in the RTW Forum about a closely related subject---corruption. It'd be worth your time, IMHO, to browse or bookmark for future reference. My screenshots prove the efficacy of ZPG both for squalor and corruption.

Earlier Oda campaigns are not dissimilar to Oda 1580. They just move at a much slower pace, and your main adversary, at the start (provided you don't get into an early conflict with Takeda or Imagawa) will be subduing rebels and the Ikko-Ikki.

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Timer off, for two reasons:

1.There's nothing worse than trying to hunt down that last broken unit with only a handful of soldiers in it that's hiding in the woods somewhere. Some maps are absolutely huge, made even worse if you have no cavalry to speed up the process. So you've won the battle.....except you haven't cuz' of a busted Ashi unit with 4 men that you can't find before the timer runs out. Even more frustrating is a successful bridge defense against overwhelming odds....except....that pesky Cavalry Archer unit with about 8 horsemen, keeps rallying....and rallying....and re-rallying for the umteenth time, and you have no Yari Cav to kill it or chase it off the field. You lose....even though you've actually won.

2. The really, REALLY, epic battles can take 1-2 hours, player time~:eek:. Now most really big battles can be resolved in 1 hour or less (IIRC 60 min is the max on the clock) but I'm not losing one of those that takes longer because I ran out of an arbitrary set amount of time (and when the AI sends 6-7 full stacks, THAT is going to take longer than 1 hour). I'm surprised you haven't run into the AI cheat where it just waits for you to attack, even if you are on the defensive. Kinda shoots to hell the idea of a bridge defense, no? And really, is there a timekeeper on any real-life battlefield?

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Hey ReluctantSamurai! I agree on those, getting stressed out on the offensive while you've absolutely destroyed the opponent is a bit ridiculous. I played a couple of campaigns with the timer off, and really liked the longer battles when army sizes grew 1000+. Then, I ran into the Owari bug and was forced into attacking them instead with an awkward army composition for the job. I've also seen the AI be unable to decide which route to take to approach your defensive position, and keep walking back and forth. That's extremely rare though. The Owari bug also only seems to happen in a minority of cases.

I think I would prefer to have a custom set battle time limit (I'm thinking twice the normal limit, maybe). More time to find stragglers and long battles, but AI can't troll you and force you into attacking. I suppose you could Save the game every turn, but what if you have 1 (or more) successful battles on the same turn, before getting trolled? No chance to Save between those. ;) I did a search on the forums, and looked around the game files, cautiously concluded it's not possible without some very specific skills I don't certainly don't have.

I guess the 'wrong side' reinforcements thing doesn't happen in the Steam version (don't know what patch that is, probably latest?), haven't seen it in many campaigns at least. Now that I think of it, I'm not sure if I ever experienced the "unable to decide an attack route" on this version, or whether I only remember it from playing the hardcopy version I had.

What I do get though, is no reinforcements showing up until almost all of your army is off the field. That's not supposed to happen, is it? I'm not sure. But it's annoying, I'll hold off the first waves and then Withdraw like 6-8 units of archers. But nothing shows up, and I would've been better off keeping the archers to use in melee instead. I'd almost consider trying to Withdraw much more (even units who don't need to), just to try and trigger the reinforcements, but that only becomes useful when I have double stacks (2000+), not so much with armies of like 1.500. In my recent campaigns (Time Limit ON) I usually never bring more than 1.000 on an attack. I send in a single stack with either an expendable general (Rank 2 usually), or e.g. a Daimyo/Heir that is on 16 Wins 0 Losses. Getting to 32-0 won't happen in most campaigns, and dropping to 8 won't happen either, so I can accept the guaranteed loss. I would prefer though to send bigger stacks when necessary and fight it out, as long as AI doesn't troll me and reinforcements work fine.

Thanks a lot for the tips on editing the building preferences (done!) and downloading an edited version of Owari (I'll look into that, and perhaps turn off my Battle Time Limit again for next campaign).

Edit: The Owari swap worked, I think! =]

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Originally Posted by Drisos

What I do get though, is no reinforcements showing up until almost all of your army is off the field. That's not supposed to happen, is it? I'm not sure. But it's annoying, I'll hold off the first waves and then Withdraw like 6-8 units of archers. But nothing shows up, and I would've been better off keeping the archers to use in melee instead. I'd almost consider trying to Withdraw much more (even units who don't need to), just to try and trigger the reinforcements, but that only becomes useful when I have double stacks (2000+), not so much with armies of like 1.500.

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Ok, after playing a bit more with battle timer off, I think I realize now how the reinforcements work. It's not based on time (i.e. a random amount of time is chosen for your reinforcements to show up after you drop below 15 units), instead there is a chance to trigger reinforcements every time one of your units leaves the field. It might be predetermined (i.e. the random choice is "this game, after your first 5 units leave, reinforcements will show up"). Or it might be a fixed chance per unit (i.e. every unit leaving the field will have 10% chance to trigger reinforcements). I wouldn't know.

So, rather than simply withdrawing units (empty archers mostly) and waiting for reinforcements, I've learned to withdraw more units to trigger the reinforcements, if nothing shows up right away. Choose whichever are heavily damaged or very tired, or otherwise least useful in your situation. If any unit you withdraw is a big loss, withdraw one at a time, so you don't end up withdrawing more than necessary.

Good to see you around Drisos. :bow:

I was discussing Mori campaigns with Khan of Steppe, and we agreed it's awkward to try and go for Warrior Monks early (e.g. go Large Castle + Bhuddist Temple in Mimasaka). That's 1250, or 1525 for your first unit of WM. Now usually I just ignored the WM discount for quite a while, and expanded into Shikoku and Central Japan without them. I came up with an alternative opening, or at least alternative from our perspective, we both used to go Takeda -> Shikoku -> Kyushu (maybe taking Tajima and Kawachi from the Rebels on the other front). The plan is to forget about Shikoku for now, and rush for Kii after dealing with Takeda. Also, I spent almost nothing on Troops or Troop Production, spent almost everything on Economy (Mines in Harima and Aki, Ports in Harima, Bizen, Tajima). Only trained a few units of YA to deal with early population loyalty early, and Tea House in Tajima plus a couple Shinobi. This sets me up for teching up in Kii and starting WM production.

I think it's been a success. This is this situation in Winter 1533 (after 10 turns):

Attachment 26032

Note the Koku, I was below 100 in Autumn(!). Here's the Southern front:

Attachment 26031

Seems like I triggered some kind of butterfly effect: Imagawa has conquered Bungo and Iyo, which I have never seen in what must be a 100 campaigns by now. Also, Oda is split into 4 separate territories. Now, the Oda always implode in Sengoku Jidai campaigns, but I gotta say, this one is a masterpiece.

Attachment 26033

Edit: Ok, this campaign is just bananas. Hojo reigns supreme, until he gets assassinated (wasn't me!), both Uesugi and Takeda survive on 1 region, Imagawa is split across 3 territories.

Attachment 26034

Edit 2: Yet more craziness! Hojo left some serious armies behind, the Rebels actually conquered and killed off Takeda. When I pushed into Shinano (from Mino), I was attacked by over 5.000 (!). I don't think I've ever seen that. At most I've seen 2K-3K in the lategame vs. the horde. I have battle timer off, so I actually got to fight 5 full stacks. It was surprisingly easy, though, after the first +/- 2K, morale on the remaining reinforcements seemed to be very low. Many units routed without taking casualties (just being charged/surrounded). It turned out to be an exercise in fatigue management, more than anything.

Attachment 26036

Battlefield absolutely littered:

Attachment 26035

Damn I've been missing out on some quality stuff! That's an interesting observation regarding the reinforcements Drisos, you may have talked me into trying out a battle timer off campaign...it's still pretty wack if that's how it works but just knowing how trigger them could be encouraging enough to try it out.

Also I love that campaign, it's so wacky. Did you wait to conquer Kyushu and Shikoku until after you defeated the north?