Wedge formation ...

I played both STW and MTW to exhaustion, only on expert, with almost every clan or nation ... and I never could figure out the importance of Wedge formation ... Now, lately, I started visiting the forums (I mean, posting, because I watched the threads and before). I stumble sometimes upon opinions that say that wedge is a usefull formation ... I tend too disagree ...

When you use wedge formation, even if it's cavalry, the first man almost splits from the rest, goes deep into the enemy line, and the others try to follow him ... the enemy breaks very hard, and I think that a charge in compact formation is much more usefull; only when attacking thin spreaded detachments of archers you really see something like chaos in the enemy lines ... my guess is that the element is poorly implemented in the game, or it was not given to much atention ...

I really would want to see some opinions about using wedge; I always ask myself if I subestimate it

all best ...

It's a great way of getting your king/general isolated and killed. Also I find it totally useless.

Not worth the effort

....Orda

I only use it very seldom, when I do it's the exploit an opening between two enemy units which are already pinned down.

Like so:

E = Enemy
F = Friendly

Let's try an approximate diagram:
_
/ \
/ \
E1 / E2
F1 / F2
F3

The two enemy units (E1 & E2) on both left and right are already engaged by friendly units (F1 & F2). There is a small opening in between the fighting units and the friendly army has a reserve or flanker unit, F3.

F3 unit goes into wedge formation and slips through the opening in between the lines, once at the rear of E2, the friendly unit F3 goes back into close formation, spreads into a line and charges the enemy from the rear.

This is the most common way I use wedge.

While I rarely use the wedge formation in hand-to-hand combat, I've found it to be quite useful when moving 5+ infantry units that you wish to maintain in a line to a different position on the battlefield. Caveat being that your careful enough in your repositioning not to be attacked while moving and before you can redeploy in line.

Its also effective for maneuvering a single unit between two enemy formations...minimizes the chance of engaging them if you don't want to

I only use wedge formation for Cav charges at infantry.
go custom battle and picka cav army and pick 1 unit of peasants to charge. put the cav in wedge and charge. Now the cav should go right through the peasants. The advantage to wedge is it concentrates force and also more cav are fighting than they could in close formation

The wedge formation, in addition to the obvious effects, modifies a unit's combat stats by adding 3 to melee attack and substracting 3 from melee defense. This can be useful in some cases. The wedged unit should of course be in engage-at-will mode, hold formation is a disaster... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

One example of the wedge's usefulness is when a sword unit attacks a spear unit head-on; the swords can cut into the spear unit and disrupt its ranks, which reduces the spears' effectiveness. A higher attack rating for the swords makes it less likely for the spearmen to stop the charge, thus it's more likely for the swords to penetrate into the spear unit. Individual battles are also resolved faster, giving the enemy less time to react.

Try it in a custom game and see it for yerselves. In the situation described above, swords in wedge should perform better than in a compact formation.

Never use your general in wedge, when I try to test cavalry vs cavalry in custom, the comp always puts his in wedge, which results in the general dieing in a couple seconds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Mar. 29 2003,15:10)]I played both STW and MTW to exhaustion, only on expert, with almost every clan or nation ... and I never could figure out the importance of Wedge formation ... Now, lately, I started visiting the forums (I mean, posting, because I watched the threads and before). I stumble sometimes upon opinions that say that wedge is a usefull formation ... I tend too disagree ...

When you use wedge formation, even if it's cavalry, the first man almost splits from the rest, goes deep into the enemy line, and the others try to follow him ... the enemy breaks very hard, and I think that a charge in compact formation is much more usefull; only when attacking thin spreaded detachments of archers you really see something like chaos in the enemy lines ... my guess is that the element is poorly implemented in the game, or it was not given to much atention ...

I really would want to see some opinions about using wedge; I always ask myself if I subestimate it

all best ...

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I totally agree it is very poor implemented in the game and it should be refined much more.

If the Wedge were looser, more units could get their charge bonus on impact instead of ramming into the back of the guys in front of them. I think it ought to be looser IMHO.

Experiment

Defense:
Spears, Wedge, Hold Position.

Offense:
Knights

Attack Spears with Knights.

Reports please.

Experiment

Defense:
Sargents, Wedge, Hold Position.

Offense:
Knights

Attack Sargents with Knights.

Reports please.

It should be removed from teh game altogether as anachronistic and pointless.

Wedges were often formed by groups of troops as a ntural part of movement - charge off to a flank with a wide infantry unit and you'll see what I mean.

With horses they naturally form a loose wedge behind a leader when running as a pack.

HOWEVER as a military formation the only people to use it were Greek cavalry - and then only because it enabled them to manouvre and turn easily - withan officer at each corner all you had to do to turn in his direction was fall in behind him.

"Diamonds" were also used by the Greeks - with 4 officers they allowed slightly easier turning through 90 and 180 degrees.

It's a needless waste of processing space.

The units seem to intent on maintaining the wedge formation. Whenever I have used it, the first 2-4 ranks actually charge into the enemy. Then ranks behind pretty much stop, and then they'll re-charge the enemy, lowering the effectiveness of the wedge and how its main purpose.

Thx for the debate, guys ...

I can't agree with Panther, in my opinion I'd say that more horsemen are engaging in compact than in wedge ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]The wedge formation, in addition to the obvious effects, modifies a unit's combat stats by adding 3 to melee attack and substracting 3 from melee defense. This can be useful in some cases. The wedged unit should of course be in engage-at-will mode, hold formation is a disaster...

One example of the wedge's usefulness is when a sword unit attacks a spear unit head-on; the swords can cut into the spear unit and disrupt its ranks, which reduces the spears' effectiveness. A higher attack rating for the swords makes it less likely for the spearmen to stop the charge, thus it's more likely for the swords to penetrate into the spear unit. Individual battles are also resolved faster, giving the enemy less time to react.

Try it in a custom game and see it for yerselves. In the situation described above, swords in wedge should perform better than in a compact formation.

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A very good ideea was sugested by Crandaeolon, I never tried it, but it seems logic ... I wonder why I never thought of it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif I usually envelop the spearmen, hopping for a quick break, or I exhaust them through long marches, but this seems to make the frontal assault an easy one (of course, if you engage with swordsmen)

Is there any merit to charging a wedged unit into the gap between enemy units?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Mar. 31 2003,10:42)]Is there any merit to charging a wedged unit into the gap between enemy units?

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Yes, to some extent... If you can get the wedged unit in between the enemy units then it is great for flanking as it has a much smaller profile (and I think a smaller footprint). You can get through the gap, if not then it is hardly as good.

Once you have gotten through keep the formation as it makes for easy turning, and the better attack makes for a powerful charge in the flanks, but after the charge has ended revert to Close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
HOWEVER as a military formation the only people to use it were Greek cavalry - and then only because it enabled them to manouvre and turn easily - withan officer at each corner all you had to do to turn in his direction was fall in behind him.

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Vikings used it also, they named it "svinefylkning". "Fylkning" is norse meaning warriors in battle-formation. "svin" means pig(&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif.

I use the wedge from time to time with some success.
Did some tests once front to front on a completely plain map; i think it is best used when attacking a weak spearunit (spearmen, feudal sgts.) with a more powerful unit (FMAA, vikings...). The vikings would most probably beat the spearmen anyway, but in a wedge i found them to do so with approx. 20% better kill to loss ratio. I guess the reason is that the spearmen lose their rank-bonus if the wedge breaks the first ranks. This effect gets even better when charging in wedge downhills. However, if the charge does NOT break the first ranks... In other words dont charge SAPs head on in a wedge; never seen them break...

The Viking "pig snout" was an army formation, not a unit one - IIRC it consisted of axement in front and archars and javelinmen in the rear.

A lot of our misconceptions aobut wedges come from mistranslations of the latin word "cuneus" - this means wedge, but also column, and reading accounts where it is used it's reasonably clear that they're refering to columns of troops - eg in one instance Livy has Macedonians forming a "cuneus" in a gap knocked in the wall of their town - in this position with their flanks protected by the remaining wwalls the Romans cannot dislodge them.

A wedge?? No - jsut the normal Macedonian phalanx, which might indeed be described as a column.

Kraxis and Seljuk are exactly right....using the wedge to squeeze thru a tight spot can be a game winning move, particularly if you dont have the time to do a wide flank. Lots of generals online tend to leave these little gaps in their lines under the assumption you wont fit. Using fast cav for a squeeze thru works wonders if you manage to get thru without getting pulled into the fight...another reason to be sure u are on engage and not hold.

I never use it for h2h unless I am chasing down routers