Americans v Europeans, Why?

I have noticed a lot of posts expressing animosity between Americans and Europeans not just here but also in the .com site and in following a link from a member here to another games forum. Being quite long in the tooth I come from a generation that was brought up to regard the Americans as allies and friends, and in my personal and business world have never really found anyone who has any dislike of Americans. I have worked in America, in Arizona (now that was a hot place I was starting to dream fondly of rain&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif, and found everyone friendly and helpful, although it did strike me how, to everyone there, the world ended at the Canadian and Mexican borders.

True I am British which has always been a loyal and stalwart ally of America but I worked for a time in Switzerland and Germany and never found any animosity from the people I met and worked with towards America, but that was in the 1980’s. I was just wondering if it was a new phenomenon, born of the uncertainty of the post Soviet era, or is it a deepening divide in the way the world is regarded? The crisis in NATO has turned my thoughts to these issues more acutely. I know here in Britain the current president Bush is not very well regarded, and although we like to think we are tolerant we are beginning to find the Hollywood treatment of Britain a trifle wearing, but generally this has not dampened our enthusiasm and liking for Americans.

So it is surprising to see such venom in the comments between Europeans and Americans, is it the safety of anonymity to enable people to express views they would never utter in reality to each other or am I interpreting it all too seriously and in fact its all good natured banter that sometimes gets out of hand?

the main prob, is it's not the people for the most part, it's the opposing governments that are chapping everyones behinds... they critisize us gov, us defend critisize them, becomes a viscous circle.. this thread will prob turn ugly..imo.

seen it enough times, tempers flair posts go way off topic, mods shut them down.. human nature, both sides assume their right and are unwilling to sway opinion..

i try to keep my head down, not get to involved in some threads, doesn't always work, i dragged myself down to that level a couple of times..

the iraq, thing has everyone on edge though, everyone trying to convinve the other their right, and to be honest i gonna try and stop.. no matter what we say or do here, it won't change our own governments views or attitudes.

I agree, I just found it sad to see so much anger amongst former friends. I hoped I was wrong and that I was misinterpreting the whole thing and it was just good natured banter. If it does get ugly then it was a mistake on my part to have posted my comments.

don't let that stop you, we usually tear the hell out of each other one day, then the next were joking around, usually no one gets to upset, if so tell them and 99% of the time they'll apologize, no one wants to be mean or spiteful like i said when tempers flare, they say things they usually don't mean.. as long as you don't flame or get to personal it's not a major problem, the only other thing is try and stay on topic, that's on thing that upsets some people. just mingle with the folks and you'll have a blast. only been here about a month, and this is the friendliest board i've been to even when disagreeing with each other.


come on down to the tavern the first rounds on me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Thanks mine’s a pint of Theakstons Old Peculiar if they’ve got it.....

It is not easy to explain this animosity... But along the years (starting from WW2), at some point relations turned more sour. Right after WW2 till roughly vietnam americans got idolised by europeans. Everything they did was considered to be great and such. Vietnam started to change the image of the nice big brother europa had of the USA, and slowly that idolisation from pre-vietnam started to turn into dissapointment. One quickly started to disgree with its politics (even when one did not know anything bout it) but its culture remained very interested still for a while. The end of cold war as well as USA involvement in other countries affairs in lets say the last 2 decades increased this feeling of dissapointment, which in some cases are turned into sceptism, resentment or just animosity.

There are many more other factors which play a role in this but well... I don't want to drag too long about this subject

The thing is that there is an inreased feeling of Europeans dissapointment towards the States which is returned by an increased feeling of european ungratefullness from the Americans which sometimes collide and result in these seemingly mutual hatred. Usually no one gets upset as long as people can talk about this instead of the annoying and pathethic America ruxors vs America suxors bashes one can find easily on forums and chatrooms. Fortunetly I haven't seen these in MTW community as of yet.

For me personally, I like the country and its people in a general way. Some americans i dislike, and some i am glad to count as friends. Its just its politics, the way its society works generally as well as few other things i disagree with from now and then, but thats what a free democracy stands for i guess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

I don't think things are as bad as seem. There always seems to be alot of bickering an animosity between Americans and Brits on message boards, but I find that isn't the case in real life.

I was in London two months ago, had a great time and met some great people. Everyone was nice.(Can't say the same about Paris)I didn't expect any different. I was raised to always regard Britain as an ally, and I always thought that out of all the nations in the world, America and the UK had the best relatioship, despite occaisional differences.

With message boards I think you just get the knucklehead element from both nations stirring the pot. Some other people who are normally rational, get pulled into it and before you know it there is bad blood and flame wars.

In real life though the knuckleheads keep their mouths shout out of fear of receiving a punch to the mouth.

An important point may be that Europeans and Americans had always much different views on a lot of things, but this was negated during the Cold War because we had common enemies. Nowadays, it`s much more complicated and the Europeans see that America does a lot of things they dislike. Another point is that with the European Union, our nations want to play a greater role in the world and don`t agree so easily with the US any more. But I think this only reflects disagreement with the politics. Most people in Europe don`t dislike American people and vice versa - or so I hope.

This is common on most off-topic game boards I visit. I think the pending war has heightened the rivalry beyond it's normal place.

Like Jayrock said, we generally get along here quite well, even after spirited disagreements. Keep in mind, the average attention span on a forum is about 6 minutes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif Seriously though, things are said in the heat of the moment but sanity usually returns.

Why the disagreement? I think Americans and Europeans have slightly different ranges of social values. This can be seen in govt policy and is related to each region's respective history IMO. These are disagrements on moral ground which intelligent people can handle and still respect each other. I grumble about France & Germany's current stance regarding Iraq, in fact I complain about France for all kinds of things, but if something were to happen to either of those two coutries, I would be all for supporting them. I think (hope) this is a common sentiment on both sides. Friends can disagree, after all.

btw - i rarely argue w/Brits, I luv those guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

In my experience on the Org forums, these types of things come and go as the world situation changes. As things heat up in the world forum, they heat up here. Eventually people get tired of the arguing and I think it is starting now. Look at the number of topics showing up in the Tavern sub-titled no politics. These times shall pass...

Hate to be controversial but i couldnt resist this one, so here goes. americans were perfectly happy to appease saddam until a little incident last september when 3000 americans were killed, when you watch the pentagon burn for 3 days out of your office window and you have friends killed in the wtc your attitude changes a bit about wanting to eliminate very real terrorist threats. dont say saddam doesnt support terrorism, he blatantly admits paying palestinians to blow themselves indiscriminantly in israel, dont think for a minute he would hesistate to strike in other ways if he thought he could get away with it. thats what this is all about. for those who say this is all about oil, i agree, guess who most of saddam's oil goes to these days, France and Germany, I wonder why they want to keep appeasing him? i dont have to tell you what happens when you keep appeasing brutal dictators. its natural and healthy that europeans and americans (or anybody else) disagree on worldly matters (or which faction is more fun to play) but it is surprising to me that France and Germany would ally themselves with somebody like Saddam in this case. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/argue.gif

sorry, i obviously meant blow themselves up not blow themselves, although it does add a bit of humor to an alltogether serious post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Well Britain insults America a lot, but deep down most people regard them as close allies and would probably support them if they had to, just a bit jealous. And you are all idiots. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif

But the French and Germans are different, especially the French. Far more hatred and stuff like that, France trying to show it still has power and influence on the Security Council and Nato, although it will probably destroy them at this rate.

I spent a week in Germany last summer as part of an exchange program. They visited us, and we visited them. The cool part was that we stayed with German families for a week. We had a great time- we'd go out drinking every night, go see the sights, and just have an all around good time.

My point here is that the people on an individual level can get along with each other. I only ran into one or people who seemed annoyed with me, and to be fair, I did enjoy plaing the arrogant american tourist. It's the governments and its policies that cause friction.

Don't know about France, though. But the common perception here is that they don't like us at all. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

i have to agree with Jazzman on this one. After 9/11 things changed. I live in Florida now but was living near D.C. when when it happened. America changed after that day. We arnt playing around anymore. If we even think you might be harboring (or working with Terriosts) we are coming to get you. Plan and simple. If the rest of the world disagree's with us or not, it doesnt matter. We will do what it takes to protect or country.

As much as it pains me to say this... Australia, Germany, France etc.... just wait. Once a major terror attack happens in your country you will be singing a different tune. Hopefully you will never have to go through something like that but its probally gonna get worse before it gets better.

It's a common perception all over the place... Show me someone the French do like...Saddam?? ahhhh o.k...who else?... ... ... ... times up.


Of course, I would probably think kinder thoughts about the French, if their Govt. hadn't got their secret service to plant limpet mines on the Rainbow Warrior...not that I am bitter or twisted about this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

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The following is my opinion, and my opinion only
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England and America have a very close relationship, and always have. For a start we have a fairly common back ground and we speak the same language. This makes communication a lot similar, and it is not very often that we mistake what is ment.....

The UK is undergoing a dramatic change, there is pressure for us to have closure links with mainland europe. This in my opinion is a very large mistake. Countries of Europe historically has been the UK's enemy. The idea of a single state in my opinion is a joke. We are to different a people. We should respect our differences. (and before anybody says it YES I know we had a war with the USA and they kicked us out.)

This is I believe is the underlying problem, and becuase the UK has always had a special relationship with the US it causes friction with other member EU states.

Therefore there is a power truggle for who wants to be No1. At the moment the USA is top dog, and the 'EUROPEAN UNION' wants that position. This causes a major problem for the UK......

Are we part of the EU or should we stay major friends with the USA ?

yeah. well... i think if there is one thing we all can agree on is..... Nobody likes the french http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

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Originally Posted by [b

]If we even think you might be harboring (or working with Terriosts) we are coming to get you. Plan and simple. If the rest of the world disagree's with us or not, it doesnt matter. We will do what it takes to protect or country.

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So... no proof is required...and that is the most frightening thought...not that a terrorist may target my country for supporting America during most of its wars...but that one day America may think that any country ( any country at all) may be a threat and destroy its goverment, its military, its infrastructure...causing civilian casulties and unleashing devastation such as America will never have to endure...

You set no limits on who, how, where you will attack.
As long as AMERICANS are safe , anything goes...and screw the rest of the world's people.

You are abandoning the use of diplomacy as a means of resolving disputes...instead war is your solution...will you apply this to other disputes and countries? We are uncertain.

...and you Americans wonder why people of other countries are unnerved by the rhetoric that we hear???

You are threatening every person on the face of the planet in your quest for vengance...and maybe the only way for you to feel safe is to purge the world of eveyone except Americans...the thing is that you do have the power to do this...and we are afraid...very afraid that this will come to pass...

Tell me I'm wrong...


*** No emoticons were damaged in the making of this post***

*** Please don't think that I am anti American...that is not the case...I am merely nervous ***

*** Please note that I am responding in a polite manner to the topic and quoted post, and not abusing Anyone or their Country, please respond in a similar manner***

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]o... no proof is required...and that is the most frightening thought...not that a terrorist may target my country for supporting America during most of its wars...but that one day America may think that any country ( any country at all) may be a threat and destroy its goverment, its military, its infrastructure...causing civilian casulties and unleashing devastation such as America will never have to endure...

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there ya go.... pick apart my post then make some long rant about how your nnneeerrrvvvoouuuusss. get a grip. The American people wouldn't stand for it if we just attacked every country without proof.

Im sorry i used the word THINK we know for a FACT that Saddam has supported Terrorists in the past and he will do whatever it takes to get back at America.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]You are abandoning the use of diplomacy as a means of resolving disputes...instead war is your solution...will you apply this to other disputes and countries? We are uncertain.

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Using Diplomacy on a man who will gas his on people and starve them to death just so he can have a few missles is like trying to knock a brick wall over by banging your head against it. Stop being so dramatic.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]You are threatening every person on the face of the planet in your quest for vengance...and maybe the only way for you to feel safe is to purge the world of eveyone except Americans...the thing is that you do have the power to do this...and we are afraid...very afraid that this will come to pass...

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How the hell are we threating your life by attacking Iraq???
Where are you coming up with this stuff???
Trust me.... we keep you more safe then you will ever know (or admit)

AGAIN we have double standards......

Tony Blair is trying to be against terrorism. This is a joke

Siting in the UK parliament are a number of IRA terrorist. These people because they say they have given up on the 'killing' and have been forgiven and allowed to sit as members of parliament.

We have a Muslim cleric nicknamed 'Doctor Hook' who stands up in London preaching anti American/British hate. He say it is ok to kill a non Muslim. There are also others.....

Britain will allow anybody in, and they can say anything they want against anybody, and we say we are against terrorism..............

WHAT A JOKE WE ARE 11

Im anti-american, why? i based my opinion on the amercians i heard, met, and talked with. But i also have to say that there is exceptional cases, i do like some of you US americans.

And also, isnt it like this in US, your not guilty till proven guilty?? All i heard is that US demand that Iraq prove that they dont have WMD

shouldnt it then be US cause to prove that Iraq have WMD?

And another thing, north Korea have said that they will nuke US, the IF i forgot, so why dont US start war with them.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]And also, isnt it like this in US, your not guilty till proven guilty?? All i heard is that US demand that Iraq prove that they dont have WMD

shouldnt it then be US cause to prove that Iraq have WMD?

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its not a matter of IF Iraq has WMD. We all know they have them. They have had them for decades. They keep playing hide and seek with the inspector's. Germany, France, and Russia are bitching about us going to war with Iraq because they make a TON of money every year off Iraq selling them weapons and importing Oil from them.

And China... well... If we (The USA) said the Sky was blue, China would Veto that and say its Red just to disagree with us. They dont like us and we dont like them. How the hell did a Communist country get on the security council anyway?? For that matter how did they get into the U.N.??

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Im anti-american

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Well.... im Anti-you then
not Anti-Swedish


I honestly dont know the first thing about Sweden. All i know is its cold.

ahhmm... Germany gets 80% of it`s oil from England and 15% from Norway and Russia. Only 4% are coming from Arabian lands. Don`t know about France but as far as I know the main users of Arabian oil are the US and Japan. It`s a silly argument anyway to say European nations would blockade the war because of economical reasons. If the embargos stop, the oil price will fall, so only oil exporters could have an interest to stop the war. If GB would veto the war, you could assume economical reason, but with France and Germany? Nonsense
No, the reasons why we are against the war are political and moral.
America is very frightening to the world. Yes, the US have done much to protect itself and its allies in the past. But it`s just as with a very large dog. It can guard your house but what if it gets rabied? If you`re as strong as America, you better not bark at everyone including friends or everyone will think you`ll bite everyone.

my two cents...
France and Germany do get something. They are Iraq's two biggest trading partners, they also do get oil rights and although it's only french and german companies it still affects the government. I find it odd that the two most vocal anti-war countries are the ones with the most to lose.
OTOH
America also stands to gain alot from this war, not only do they get access to the oil that france and germany are trying to protect they also get to help set a possibly friendly government right smack dab in the middle of a very non-friendly region. I'm thinking there hoping to stem the power of saudi arabia, cause that's were wahhabism comes from (Bin Laden = Wahhabist) and they can't attack it directly...

Either way i don't see a totally clean conscience on either side of the fence right now.


Of course i might just be jumping at paper tigers.

Its easy to pull all over the edge,, or how you say it in english,, and its wrong of me to do so, but i cant help it, we should have a real discussion, so you know why i think like i do, and this opinion didnt just pop up its something i got during the 7-8 last years.

And China... well... If we (The USA) said the Sky was blue, China would Veto that and say its Red just to disagree with us. They dont like us and we dont like them. How the hell did a Communist country get on the security council anyway?? For that matter how did they get into the U.N.??

China??? I was talking about north Korea,, 2 diferent countrys

Cold in Sweden,, what do you compare it with,, and why do you think its cold here

in southern sweden it aint so cold, not even in winter thats where i live, northern sweden its cold in winter, and in summer its very warm.

Colder than Texas, I bet

Average temperature here in January is 52 degrees Fahrenheit during the day, that is about 11 Celsius.

And that is North Texas, southern Texas is about 65 degrees Fahrenheit, 18 degrees Celsius.

Colder in any part of Sweden I would guess

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Quote[/b] ]China??? I was talking about north Korea,, 2 diferent countrys

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The reason i brought up China is because they are on the UN security council and they are blocking us from going to war also.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Cold in Sweden,, what do you compare it with,, and why do you think its cold here

in southern sweden it aint so cold, not even in winter thats where i live, northern sweden its cold in winter, and in summer its very warm.

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Well... i live in florida, so to me its a F---ing Iceberg
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

The US had no credible threat post-cold war, which is why the September 11th was such a big shock. Until then the US had no threats to its native soil. Same as Pearl Harbour.
Both cases US reacted strongly.

EU thinking is more tolerant of other viewpoints and inclined to avoid conflicts where possible. Natural, if you remember that it is a group of nations with a long history of bloody wars and mistakes, and with Africa, Russia and the Middle East on the borders.

I think its the natural difference you get when you go through the events of history. Fine and OK, and its healthy to have a difference. EU vs. USA? Fine by me if it pushes both nations/powerblocks forwards (our greatest technological leaps were made by the US/USSR).

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TheViking @ Feb. 14 2003,03:20)]And also, isnt it like this in US, your not guilty till proven guilty?? All i heard is that US demand that Iraq prove that they dont have WMD

shouldnt it then be US cause to prove that Iraq have WMD?

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*sigh* there is a list of WMD destruction that was compiled by inspectors in 1991-1998. That list started with what Iraq admitted to having.

The US is looking for 1) Iraq to state where the WMD are now OR 2) Iraq to show those weapons were destroyed.

Initially Iraq completely avoided this issue, now they're coming up with some infomration on only a small portion of the WMD.

What I don't get is why Saddam doesn't just give them up. He'd be a fool to use them (his people will suffer, but maybe he doesn't care) and will have no need for them if he's ousted. His refusal to gie them up is ominous.