Definitive solution for MORALE

My Khan sended me...

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Howl

There is only one solution for the morale system make it optional into:

1) NO MORALE
or leave this one out since it was mostly used by cheaters

2) NEW MORALE
what we have now, so dragoncat and the newbies can play with this setting

3) MEDIUM MORALE
somewhere in between old and new morale

4) OLD MORALE
like we had in shogun for those who cant live without it

this is a favour we ask from teh developers. besides when having this we will see after some months which morale system is most played online and could be an example for the Crusaders morale.

Guys i strongly advise u to support such an option since we might end up with less and less players online. and without enemies no battles.

Howl
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Yeah my Great KHan i support u.....

gallopGALLOPgallopGALLOPgallop


[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 08-25-2001).]

Sounds good-- if they'll do it. So far they're leaving it to us to do all the modifications, and they don't seem to happy about even that. But we'll see.

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Khan7

After a few online battles, I'm starting to swing towards morale reduction. I'm still thinking that the factor involved is that all MP units are base H2 instead of the H0 of SP. Perhaps make MP units H0 instead of H2?

My thought is based on the fact that SP H0 armies with +1 from most taishos act about the same as in STW, a bit tougher, but going for the rout is still good tactics. However, using MP units at H3/4 (equivalent to a legendary dojo with +2 taisho for base units) my units all fight until under 20 at least, usually under 10. This is not a bad thing in SP for trained veterans under a high honor taisho, but it is usually only a few units in the army. Most units tend to be having their honor kept in check by adding replacements.

Edit: Why don't some of the more regular players get together and fight some base H0 friendly battles. Possibly by simply building your "standard" armies and then dropping the honor across the board by 2. Don't spend the extra koku received. See how it plays then.

[This message has been edited by Algesan (edited 08-25-2001).]

Magyarkahns cham,

Is your great kahn ill?? his howling seems a little weak up their!

Sorry 2 ask such a silly question but whats all this morale stuff about?Is this whats happening H2unit takes more losses to rout than a h2unit in STW or am i way or track? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Here's my initial thoughts on morale:

1. In the SP campaign in the Sengoku era the morale of the units seems to work absolutely fine and in my opinion does not need to be changed whatsoever...

2. However, ibn the custom battles the morale seems to be a little different and the units definitely fight a lot longer and rout a lot less... I had a unit of H2 YA fight to the last man against JHC and YS!! :eek!! Definitely seemed to be a little skewed...

3. No experience as of yet on the multiplayer and so can't comment...

DOC

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
Sorry 2 ask such a silly question but whats all this morale stuff about?Is this whats happening H2unit takes more losses to rout than a h2unit in STW or am i way or track? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif[/QUOTE]

Yes, units are tougher in the expansion. This is good in SP since in the original hitting a unit in the flank would quickly start a chain rout and let you spend most of your time in pursuit action.

Cham or Magyar, do you play SP and if you do, is there a problem with the morale when you play SP?

Algesan, your H0 idea is actually a very good one. I happen to think that this might work for those that dislike the new moral system.

Thing is, i don't think the problem will go away... many people will still be complaining because their H2 troops (after paying for the upgrade) still "fight like H6 troops." Apparently, it's a matter of some principle for those that don't like the way things are. They seem to be looking for a fundamental change in the morale system as opposed to a simple increase of the routing chances of units.

I mean, really, there's the simple solution of just playing with H0 troops and leaving the morale system alone... that option is available now, but no one seems to be taking it... i couldn't begin to guess why not...

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-25-2001).]

I would think that the major reason would be that it's a royal pain the bum. It would mean you can't have varying honor levels. Why wouldn't the people who disliked the old morale simply play high koku battles in the old version? And there they actually would've had options, because you can have varying degrees of high koku for varying degrees of higher morale. But as many have stated, I believe, (1) h0 morale is still gonna be a bit wacked (somehow the explanation that it's just honor that makes all the difference doesn't ring true to me.. I haven't noticed even a slight difference in SP Campaigns but custom battles and from what I hear of online sounds batty), (2) you can't have varying degrees of h0 morale, it's just h0, there's nowhere you can go with it.

Basically providing options would be a fix that compared to many of the fixes they've done in past patches would be quite easy. It's a nobrainer, and it would at least shut people up who would otherwise be raising a ruckus (and IMHO a quite rightful ruckus :-) ).

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Khan7

Actaully No, the honour 0 solution is not that good.

In normal koku games + high koku you have to spend all your koku anyway and you have to take surely honour 2+ guys.

And by saying "make all units hon0" you will probably get many rushers anyway.

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here!
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

"you can't have varying degrees of h0 morale, it's just h0, there's nowhere you can go with it"

Sure there is. There's weapon and armor upgrades.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

Nevertheless, like i said, and like others have intuited, the H0 solution would be seen as more of a band-aid solution than anything else.

I don't mind tellin' you guys: I don't think anything's wrong with the new morale system. But i think we need to adress the fact that decreasing honor will affect other facets of the game. Namely, there will be more of a push to downgrade Mongol units when people discover that those Yari Samurai will be running more than they are fighting...

In other words, altering morale will most certainly bring up new (or exaggerate old) unit balance issues.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

One more thing: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I think that decreasing morale will cause further problems with units routing when being flanked by enemy units that don't pose a particularly dangerous threat, e.g. Kensai, BN...

Imagine being in a huge battle, then simply running BN to the side of your enemy and watch the cascade rout...

I don't know. I just think we oughtta start thinking about what OTHER consequences reducing morale might cause...



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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

People need to remember, when someone says SP and MP use different morale systems, that a lot of the SP battles they have seen use low honor units, that also have low inherent morale stats. This would be like using only H0 units in MP, and using only the weakest units. Also remember the fact that most Jap units the Mongols face are YS and SA. These two units are weaker than they were in STW. YS had its armor reduced from 3 to 2, making it the same as YA now. SA had its defense reduced from 0 to -1, making it the same as YA now. With these main units weakened, and morale raised so that units fight longer, is it really any wonder that SP appears to be different from MP morale? Why was STW's campaign so popular? It used the same low honor troops, and had a weaker overall morale system too. Maybe because the YS and SA were stronger units in STW, and maybe weakening these units, for MI, made the MI morale system be altered.

We have tried using H0 troops, in MI, to see if that made the game playable. The problem is that many options, like armor and weapon upgrades, and having H(-2)units, wouldnt be available. Also, many H0 units will very often fight to the death too. Many STW people use H0 units in large koku games, mixed in with their higher honor units. These options are no longer possible. Many people continue to play very low koku games in STW. It has always been very poplular for people to have battles with really crappy troops. This was really where most people saw whole army's rout. This popular type of game is no longer possible. A lot of people played teamgames where there was a very real danger of your ally causing you to rout, because your army wouldnt stand to see a dozen freindly units running past you. This made your team-timing critical to the overall success. Timing overall isnt so important anymore, a generals ability to schedule, and feel, the flow of events has been radically altered. The fact no one wants to argue about is; that MI's morale system was available, and sometimes used, within STW's existing system, but that the most popular lower honor areas of STW's morale sytem arent available within MI.

Ok, just to be clear, instead of paying XXX for a H2 unit, you get a H0 unit for online play.

I don't like the chain routs that could be easily started by simply slamming a unit into the flank of another unit in the original SP. Now the units will stand long enough to allow corrective measures.

Since we have time for more playing before any change will be made, why not test it the way I suggested. Build the armies, drop all honor by 2 and then see if the armies perform in a manner that the people who want the change find preferable.

Even if this is not considered acceptable, since it removes the option of lowering honor to stretch koku, it still gives everyone a datapoint to build from for a morale slider, high/mdm/low morale buttons and/or an overall morale tweak.

I don't like the concept of variable morale since it will open yet another debate on what is "honorable". Not that there aren't problems with what is fair or not in online play, but IMO most of those can be solved by allowing different kokus for attacker and defender.

I dont understand what your saying, and you must not be understanding what I'm saying. I said we have tried to use the lowest honor settings in MI. That that leaves many options unavailable. That low honor troops still fight unreasonably long. That morale is still too high. You are mentioning the morale of SP STW campaign games being too low. This likely means low honor units that are also low moraled. My point was for comparisons between SP and MP, MI and STW to take into account the type of units being considered. You want other people to try to live within a system your comfortable with, but wont debate the issues; that the options that have been removed are still very popular online, and that the options that MI standardizes were available before but never very popular. There was a difference between very high honor units before, but now they become maxed out much earlier. You also didnt discuss the possibility that altering YS and SA, and then relying on SP campaigns to establish a new morale system balance, a balance that was no doubt dramatically effected by these changes, was a great error. The introduction of a new Mongol army, weakening Japanese units, and then trying to balance a new SP campaign is the obvious culprit here.

Algesan , like i stated in a different post , i've seen h0 cav archers with no upgrades fight till the last man against 2 light mongol cav , coming from front and back. That's rediculous. If in old STW u would have a h0 cav archer , it would waver at close enemy contact , and break if they take more than 4 casualties in the enemy charge. Simple. Change morale and be a good company ea , and u can have my money for the x-pack.. or should i say , our enhanced patch 1.13 with new bugs!

Ok, then a reduction to H0 is not enough and the tweak has to go further than that for online play. However, you still want SP campaign balance and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see the morale drop a little there. I know there is a problem. I've been on the winning side twice in team battles simply because my H3/4 units stood longer than they should have. The other side tried to take me out and could not before my allies slammed into them. I've lost a couple of battles because even though I brought the hammer down on a flank, the units there stood so long it was a wasted effort.

What I'm trying to do is help find a point where most players can accept the morale level. I don't mind helping with the effort when I am available online, but I don't have a steady schedule of times I play. If H0 is not enough, then perhaps going into the troopstats.txt and dropping all the unit honor bonuses down one, fighting battles, discussing results, rinsing and repeating until an acceptable level is found.

It also might be that -X will work for Japanese games but -Y is better for Mongol games. There is no way to know until it gets tested.

Nope, in SP campaign i have been using mainly H3-H4 troops and found very little difference to the original STW morale system... keep morale the same regarding SP campaign (sengoku period btw) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Multiplayer and/or Custom games may be different though especially as the Mongols get involved!! DUnno yet as haven't really tried and tested that much with them...

DOC

I think the moral in sp is fine.

As for multiplayer on-line it's a disgrace I would rather see the old honour system back. The old shogun was about tactics now it is just unit vs unit the best unit wins no tactics what so ever.
GET THE MORALE BACK TO WHAT IT WAS!!!!!!

I'll tell you the problem, I lowered the Muskets honour and effectivness all I could in the game (Hon0) and in the files, not one unit runs until its about 40% strength...try the same test with the old morale system on Hon0...its not just in the files, they havn't left a low enough morale base!!!

WE DRIFT OFF THE SUBJECT

ONLY A MORALE SETTING CAN SATISFY US ALL

SP and MP

I dont think anyone drifted off the subject here. In fact, it seems maybe the SP and MP may have different morale systems in MI. This is a bigger problem than people judging things inaccurately. If CA only increased online morale, then the fix is to just change it back. The MORALE, FATIGUE, and 99,999 koku settings will provide us with all the options we need, just like they always have.

I havent read all the stuff..i just saw big letters saying drifting off....ok then

Hmmmm I like the idea that units dont rout when they are no longer holding the generals hand........needed for the ninja and ambushes etc.

But I dont like the way units are fighting to the last 2 maybe 3 men against multi attacking units......

I know the mongols are fantasy...but this is mad....180 men charge into 5 waving spears and swords...some on damn big horses...and they stay and fight.....cobblers!

We need a mix......a slight adjustment....we need mongol vs mongol also.....we need a patch.......people get on this now....people power.

My answer is MEDIUM Magyar....

sorry for the state of this post I need sleep lol..(or are they always like this?)

Actually, Cham may be right, the easiest way from a balance point would be a slider or a way to set a morale bonus, positive (LOL) or negative in MP that will display in the game info. Then players could test and adjust depending on the situation. We need to find out from Target & Co. if something like that is doable reasonably.

If not, then we are looking at testing with modified troopstats until we find a balance factor they can hardcode in.

I conducted a test online today of Mongol vs Japanese on the green map at 5000 koku with morale reduced on all units by 4 points by editing TroopStats. First TosaInu and Kraellin fought while I watched, and then I fought Kraellin while TosaInu watched, and then I fought TosaInu while Kraellin watched.

In general, routing did happen sooner to units. Instead of routing at 5 men or less, units were typically routing at 10 to 15 men left. In my battle with Kraellin, my last unit was a 30 man Nag cav. It wavered and routed immediately after contacting 1 of Kraellins's units with 2 others nearby. This -4 morale setting is definitely part way between the old STW setting and the new WE/MI setting. You could still use units independently without fear of them routing without fighting, but, since routing occurred sooner, the victorious unit was freed up sooner, and able to be redirected that much quicker.

There was no mass army routing except right near the end of the last battle when I charged several xbow units right behind the front line. I would estimate the rout occured at about 70% total losses of the enemy army. Since the game did not immediately end, I can't be sure. The final count was Mongols 901 kills and 595 losses.

One thing of note is that my MHC taisho was reduced to one man, the taisho, who withstood a terrific onslaught. That taisho's honor had risen from it's initial H1 to H4 by virtue of the MHC unit getting 119 kills. The taisho himself had 13 kills. This effect was seen in the old STW once in a while, but it could become quite common in the new game with certain very strong units being able to rack up high kills. A unit like that can become almost invincible in melee since it's very strong to begin with.

Kraellin had the impression that the Mongol advantage was more apparent at the reduced morale setting. This may be because their fast cav is more active since it can free itself of engagements sooner, and possibly better avoid being trapped by YS.

I did feel an increased sense of ungency to respond to the aid of a loosing unit because it was not going to hold out as long now. Maybe Krae annd Tosa will post to give their impression of the tests.

I would estimate that this -4 morale setting puts the game at about 2 honor points above the old game. I think I can get an exact measure on this, but I haven't had the time to run the necessary tests.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-26-2001).]

If there is a different morale system for SP and MP, then morale should go back to what it was in STW. The option to raise honor to 9, in addition to armor, weapons, fatigue, and morale, gives us all the options we need to strengthen units. If we want to test to see what STW's morale is then we can use scientific approaches with units that exist only in both STW and MI. If we want to find out if Mongol units have a hidden combat modifier over Jap units, then we can modify similarly units, like the KSP\YS, or MLC\CA, to have the same unit statistics.

Monsta u werent asked to choose between the option, we just need a slidebar like option button

BTW why dont we have info from Hyping Target and friend sto help us out. A next step after listening to the Cry of Help is to help...

just wonedrinmg where my buddy HT (Hyping Targe) is?

"Kraellin had the impression that the Mongol advantage was more apparent at the reduced morale setting. This may be because their fast cav is more active since it can free itself of engagements sooner, and possibly better avoid being trapped by YS."

LOL, i hate to say i toldya so...
But reducing morale will most definitely exaggerate the effectiveness of Mongol units; since they are - generally speaking - inherently better, their Japanese counterparts will rout more quickly and therefore put up much less of a fight.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."