Shogun 2

(Note: Never call a Japanese Bulakumin, it's healthy. Thanks&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Technological Options and Game Style have changed so much that a Shogun 2 would be good. What do you say?

How I would Imagine...

The Map is increased and upgraded:

Map 1 = Whole Japan including Hokkaido.

Map 2 = Kyushu, Korea, Macao and Formosa (Taiwan).

Map 3 = The Phillipines.

All good things are three... The Throneroom (deleted in Mongol Inavasion) is restored. There you can now click on a box next to the desk of your Daimyo. If you have done this you can put out one of the other maps and continue the Game there (action on the other maps also calculated). This way you have more Historically Options without making an unnecessary Large Map with Hundreds of Battle Maps.

Also a Thing I would like for the Throneroom: If you click on the Geisha (like on the Sensai on your left) she takes the small Guitar and sings for you. Not really neccessary, but nice scenery

New Fractions: the Hosokawa Clan on Shikoku, (maybe a Hokkaido Clan as a Fraction) the Koreans, the Portugese, Phillipine Natives and the Chin.

These simple Features allow to give new Historically correct Options. You can play Toyotomi Hideyoshis try to conquer Korea, a fictive Invasion of the Portugese in Japan or Korea (and this way also a counterstrike of the Japanese on Macao and the Phillipnes). This also increases the realism of the Mongol Invasion: Get from Korea to Kyushu and Produce Auxilliary Troops in Korea.

Split Christanity into Catholic and Protestant. If you change from Catholic to Protestant, it should also have an effect on your people In Shogun this doesn't happen.

Marriages... As far as all Daimyos are Historic in Shogun, the Marriages would change History. So make it or not???

Map 1 -> Logically for all Fractions Free. Exepted the Portugese: The Map is first time enabled in 1542 so this keeps Historic.

Map 2 -> Open for all, but Kyushu is blocked for the Portugese until 1542.

Map 3 -> A Japanese Clan can buy these Map from the Dutch, this way it is organised that this can first take Place in 1580 and not earlyer. This way it is an alternative to Toyotomi's Korea war (with Dense Dshungle and Tropical Plants). This Map is Free to the Portogese and the Phillipne Natives.

The Phillipine Native should be able to launch some sort of Guerillia Warfare: They can organise Rebellions in other Fractions Provinces that join up them, and they get Units Firing toxic Dart by moving very fast through dense Dshungle... Also no espionage of their Buildings possible, Shinobi/Spy doesn't see anything But they can't leave the Phillipine Map...

I think Shogun 2 is silly name for a Samurai game... Kagemusha (Shadows of Warfare) is nice but also Daimyo-noh Katana or Bushido...

There have been discussions about TW2 in the Sword Dojo for a bit...

I'm not sure where you are driving at by including the Phillipines, Portuguese etc. The focus of STW was on the Sengoku Jidai, the race to beomce the Shogun of Japan. It wasn't about conquering other lands at all.

The Portuguese as a faction? Keep them minor like they were in STW. They didn't play a "warring roll" in Japan, where abouts did they conquer, where would they start?

Bringing out the same game with just new factions, a few new islands and maybe some new units... would that justify a new game?

Depends how Creative Assembly view things, they might find reason to change the focus of a new game, perhaps to an earlier/later age.

You might want to look in the Sword Dojo, this topic was raised some months ago (link below)

Ktonos:MTW/STW poll

What's "Bulakumin"? The Japanese don't have an "L" sound, as far as I know.

I'd like to see CA revisit Asia on a grand scale starting at about 300 B.C.E . Instead of the Phillipines, China. Along with Korea, Japan, Mongolia and maybe Southeast Asia (Thailand etc.), it would be a great game.

Other Way around: Japanese don't have an "R" sound. Mr. Hepburn who translated the Japanese Script made a mistake there and made "LI, LO, LA" to "RI, RO, RA".

This is how far the Japanese Course I have claim's it and it was edited by Japanese.

A Bulakumin (or by Hepburn: Burakumin) is a very low caste in the Acient Japanese Society. They were forced by their Daimyo to do jobs that were seen as "unhuman" like working with meat, dead Animals cleaning latrines... They were put into Ghettos which were seperated from the rest of the City by an artifical River. So Bulakumin is like Nigger, Shitjew or Habac.

To the Phillipines: The so called Blackship and the Trading Routes of the Portugese were going from Macao to Manila and from Manila to Japan. Also Troops of the Portugese were based in the Phillipines, which would ,incase the Spanish King had ordered it, have Attacked Japan togehter with Conquistadores from Latin America.

This isn't unhistoric: The Spanish King thought about an Invasion of Japan, the Jesuits got him to understand that the Japanese are to strong.
If it had happened, they might have even won -> Japan is an Arichipel and the important Cities lie on the Cost, but Japan only had armored Galleys and they had NO CANNONS(&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif. The Portogese/Spanish would have had cut of the Contact between the Isles and Bomabrded the Cities with Artillery, through Kyushu and Shikoku even needed Iron from other Isles or Korea the Hispanics would have had an strategic advantage. In case they did so, the Japanese would have suffered a lot

Also, the some Christian Daimyos gave Auxilliary Troops to the Portugese by fighting native Phillipinos and Chinese on Macao. The Phillipine Map should be there to display this. Anyway it deliveres an historic acurate Option (an option with good Gameplay) o us players. Anyway, I would programm the AI this way it keeps historic. So, just for fun and keeping Detail...

Seabattles -> Many requested playable Seabattles, this Shogun 2 scenario deliveres a nice Background. You get Hispanic Galeons, Dutch Holks, japanese Galleys and Korean Turtleships. This way of fighting could be inspired by the Game "Fighting Steel" from SSI. But should be able to switch out in Options Menu or made an Add-on, not everybody would like it.

how about a genhis khan or a china TW, so you can have the japanese again but not go over old ground.
japanese now will be just a single territory on the map the rest will be mongolia, parts of china, indochina central asia. problem is i don't think the military units would be as interesting as the greco-roman period or the euro-medieval period.

I think diffrent on this point:

Medieval Europe is TOO Christian for my taste, and Graeco-Roman is indeed Oriental. Yes, you heared correctly: Acient Greece and Italy had more Cultural connects to Persia and Aegypt, than to the north. We Germanics and Celts were more a "thinking animal" at the point of sight the Romans had.

Asia is much more interessting, more diffrent religions and more cultural differences. And anyway, Mongols and Huns have proveed they have been stronger than Medieval Europeans Reason: Better Tactic, better Discipline and more warlike people...

Why I prefer Japan and this way Shogun 2: Less Cultures intigrated into the Game and you get Samurais. The Nations can be displayed with much more detail and anyway a "smaller" Map makes CA able to insert Season and not YEAR Turns In Medieval all Units, doesn't matter of wich Origin were almost looking identic, so not precisely Detailed.

Samurais are my preferred Troop Type in TW, the most disciplined and strongest Infantry I've ever seen. This Way I began reading Books about Japan and the Busido Codex...

Sorry, no Shogun 2 for me. Since we are already talking about the Orient I would much prefer to see a Total War game that includes the major factions of East Asia battling for supremacy instead of concentrating solely on the Japanese again. As much as I like the Japanese I think the time is right to give China and Korea their turn in the spotlight. The opportunity to play with the wide variety of units that one would find in China, Korea, Mongolia, Southeast Asia AND Japan would fantastic.

Idea to Compromise: Old Idea of Cha-Khan Total War

I already had an Idea for an Back-to-Asia Game named this way. This old Idea was Based on giving the Mongols a greater Role...

First Champain:
It's 1200, you are are Temudjin... Can you start the Legendary Conquest and Create an Empire from Sunrise to Sunset... Or will the divine Wind, the Kamikaze, also doom your Empire to End?

Second Champain:
It's about the Times of Sun Tzu, where will once be the middle Kingdom now Warlike Dukeships rule. Can you be the Great Yu? Can you unfie all the Lands of the Chang?

Third Champain:
Asia going from 500 A.D. to 1600 A.D. . No Fraction has a Special Charackter or Historically Heirs, MTW put into Asia.

Fourth Champain:
It's 1750 (to 1900), the Russians begin to push through Sibiria and the British and French are grabbing more and more Countries. With the Troops and Technologies you get in the other Champains, you may olso Build Steamengines and other Things to display the Industrial Revolution. Will you play one of the Invaders and make Asia a "Sweatshop" for the West, will you isolate your people and doom them or will you be your people's Meji?

Add-on Disc -> Shogun 2 Design made the Add-on for this Game. Through Add-on for MTW was also only Britain in more Detail, a Japan in more Detail won't Hurt.

To the Forth Champain -> Like Meji shows, all Asean Leaders had the Potential to Reform their Countries. This Way it is an Interessting Game, through it Displays an absolute Contrast of the Beginning of our Nowdays World and the Asean Renaissance. Within an Intelligent Leadership, you can byself become an Industrial Nation and simply Rollover your foes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Mar. 12 2003,08:35)]Second Champain:
It's about the Times of Sun Tzu, where will once be the middle Kingdom now Warlike Dukeships rule. Can you be the Great Yu? Can you unfie all the Lands of the Chang?

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sun tzu time was the time of the warring states or known as the spring autumn warring states...... sun tzu worked for the wu kingdom. question, wat was the great yu? also where did the term land of the chang come from? the kingdoms that ruled china before was xia, shang and zhou and witht he collapse of zhou, then can the warring period.
anyway, the warring period would be a period for a game such as tw but unit types could be limited(not sure about this).

Chang is the Name for Acient China and the great Yu is chinese God. After what I read the first Emperor of China was the Great Yu and became divine after his live (also Chi-Yu, Ghost of Yu?, appearing in Myth). Seems I forgot this with Sun Tzu, he is younger... Better Term:" In a Time even before Konfuzius lived, there was one to unite all Kingdoms of China..." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I byself only know little about acient China, it was once unified by it's first Emperor. Before him, there were many smaller Nations indeed he is the "creator" of the Kingdom called China and the Chinese Nation.

U sorry: Chang = Shang Diffrently written in German

i guess i have to look around a bit. as far as i know, the god worshipped at the time of the shang dynasty was known as Shang Di and the first emperor to claim celestial legitamacy for his reign was zhou gong of zhou dynasty also known as zhou tien ci. watever the case, the great yu and the chang name sounds interesting, i'll look around abit but i suspect its just simply the case of names getting lost in translation.
Most often the one who was credited with the unification of china as a nation and as a people was shih huang di of qin dynasty. he was the guy who started the building of the great wall.
watever the case, the great yu and the chang name sounds interesting, i'll look around abit but i suspect its just simply the case of names getting lost in translation.

interesting, the yu you were talking about was a preshistoric sagely emperor, partmyth part history. He founded the xia dynasty but not much written records came from his period (circa 2000bc) and all we know about him came from sima qian who recorded his hhistory at around 200bc
this is the link
yu

A couple things...

1) "l" vs "r".... They don't have either, what they have is something in between. However, if you are going to pronounce a word in Japanese you should make it more "l" than "r"... This is what I have always been told.
The actual way to pronounce it is like saying an "l", but the tongue is further "up" on the roof of your mouth.

Now, if you are japanese, and you are saying english words, anything with an "l" will sound somewhat "r"-ish. the classic is "rike" me rike you.

In most classes the hiragana is romanized with "r", although when speaking japanese, pronouncing a regular American "r" is a very ACCENTED pronunciation of a japanese sound.

2) STW2....
Well, they should stick in the Sengoku Jidai. That's what I really like. They shouldn't expand beyond Korea though.
Eastern Asia was not like Europe... you didn't have all these farflung conquests/wars. The japanese almost never went outside of Japan. The chinese were content to rule "china" and a few other places because china was so huge... The barbarians from the North (mongols for example) might cause some havoc and pillaging, but that was very one-sided.
As for the Phillipines and Koreas... neither was ever a "super-power" in east Asia.
The best sequel would be to do the whole map, as in STW, but also some smaller, blown up maps... the Kansai region for example between 1555-1575 was very battle-oriented.
Similarly, a blown up map of Shinano while Takeda Shingen was consolidating that area would be great.

I think any sequel in the STW2 area should focus more on the fact that there were many smaller forts/castles that had to be pacified through diplomacy/bribery/sieges and there really wasn't just the "one battle per fief", which is how they presented it... Also, more clans of course.

Best clans for an early 1500's start: Takeda, Uesugi, Hojo, Oda, Imagawa, Hosokawa/Miyoshi, Ouchi, Otomo, and a few others...
for mid 1500's: Takeda, Uesugi, Hojo, Oda, Imagawa, Miyoshi, Shimazu, Mori, Otomo... maybe Ikko Ikki (they had a lot of power), maybe Chosokabe, maybe Tokugawa in a limited fashion.

for 1570: Takeda, Uesugi, Hojo, Oda, Tokugawa, Ikko Ikki, Shimazu, Mori, Chosokabe, AND THEN... you have to recognize the quasi-organized Oda Nobunaga resistance which focuses on the Asai/Asakura, Miyoshi, Rokkaku, and the Ikko Ikki. Additionally, in Kyushu there were a few clans that fought with the Shimazu that you would want to recognize.

For 1583: post Nobunaga: This could be really interesting... a "what if" if you would... There are a number of "claimants" but which can gather the most support? You have a bunch of Nobunaga generals/heirs, plus clans like the Mori, Hojo, Uesugi, Date, Shimazu, Chosokabe.

And 1600, Sekigahara... west vs east... This would be great because you have the two obvious factions... but who can secure the undecided daimyo. --I like this sort of idea... the "what if" born out of factional occurrances.

-Zen Blade [they took away my image... NM, they gave me a different one...]

Hello Zen Blade, good to see you again. How're you doing?

The Old Wise Man has visited to give us a lecture. In a short while, he will visit again to lecture us on the misinterpretations of his first lecture.

More to the point...

What Zen said is what I was thinking above, obviously in his wisdom he has worded it much more clearer than I. Japan rarely went outside their borders.

However, in terms of "What if" the game might be good. There are plenty of "what if's" around Eastern Asia at that time, and games are all about "what if's".

Total War hasn't taken history too serious up to now, so it wouldn't be too hard to do morally.

Tosa:

Hey mate, I'm ok. Quite busy these days, graduate school and all. Currently into MOO3... quite a disappointment really. Not very well executed despite all its potential.

Ith.....(something): In my time, we respected our elders... you young whipper snapper...

Back in the roaring 90's... alas... it's been quite a while. Ever since that fateful day in 2000... when 9 people made that fateful decision... things have just not been the same.

muwahahaha

-Zen Blade

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Zen_Blade @ Mar. 14 2003,08:32)]A couple things...

1) "l" vs "r".... They don't have either, what they have is something in between. However, if you are going to pronounce a word in Japanese you should make it more "l" than "r"... This is what I have always been told.
The actual way to pronounce it is like saying an "l", but the tongue is further "up" on the roof of your mouth.

Now, if you are japanese, and you are saying english words, anything with an "l" will sound somewhat "r"-ish. the classic is "rike" me rike you.

In most classes the hiragana is romanized with "r", although when speaking japanese, pronouncing a regular American "r" is a very ACCENTED pronunciation of a japanese sound.

2) STW2....
Well, they should stick in the Sengoku Jidai. That's what I really like. They shouldn't expand beyond Korea though.
Eastern Asia was not like Europe... you didn't have all these farflung conquests/wars. The japanese almost never went outside of Japan. The chinese were content to rule "china" and a few other places because china was so huge... The barbarians from the North (mongols for example) might cause some havoc and pillaging, but that was very one-sided.
As for the Phillipines and Koreas... neither was ever a "super-power" in east Asia.
The best sequel would be to do the whole map, as in STW, but also some smaller, blown up maps... the Kansai region for example between 1555-1575 was very battle-oriented.
Similarly, a blown up map of Shinano while Takeda Shingen was consolidating that area would be great.

I think any sequel in the STW2 area should focus more on the fact that there were many smaller forts/castles that had to be pacified through diplomacy/bribery/sieges and there really wasn't just the "one battle per fief", which is how they presented it... Also, more clans of course.

Best clans for an early 1500's start: Takeda, Uesugi, Hojo, Oda, Imagawa, Hosokawa/Miyoshi, Ouchi, Otomo, and a few others...
for mid 1500's: Takeda, Uesugi, Hojo, Oda, Imagawa, Miyoshi, Shimazu, Mori, Otomo... maybe Ikko Ikki (they had a lot of power), maybe Chosokabe, maybe Tokugawa in a limited fashion.

for 1570: Takeda, Uesugi, Hojo, Oda, Tokugawa, Ikko Ikki, Shimazu, Mori, Chosokabe, AND THEN... you have to recognize the quasi-organized Oda Nobunaga resistance which focuses on the Asai/Asakura, Miyoshi, Rokkaku, and the Ikko Ikki. Additionally, in Kyushu there were a few clans that fought with the Shimazu that you would want to recognize.

For 1583: post Nobunaga: This could be really interesting... a "what if" if you would... There are a number of "claimants" but which can gather the most support? You have a bunch of Nobunaga generals/heirs, plus clans like the Mori, Hojo, Uesugi, Date, Shimazu, Chosokabe.

And 1600, Sekigahara... west vs east... This would be great because you have the two obvious factions... but who can secure the undecided daimyo. --I like this sort of idea... the "what if" born out of factional occurrances.

-Zen Blade [they took away my image... NM, they gave me a different one...]

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China tried to expand into Indochina didn't they? Tonkin, Champa, Annam, Khmer Empire, Chochin China.

I reckon it would be far more interesting to have a sequel based around China, as we have already had a whole game based around Japan.

I think it would be cool to have a mod about Japan using the RTW engine though.

Something to add:

Great Yu Champain turned into a Mythic Champain, with Mythic Fractions... As like some Fantasy Mangas are about this, it would be a nice option to play such a Champain. Imagine a huge Giant standing in the Middle of a few thousands of Men and waging his Coil into the Enemy. Just like Sauron: He strikes and twenty learn how to fly

As a fan of Games like Civilisaton I like to have EVERYTHING in my Hands. For Example: Imagine you were Tokugawa Ieyasu and you found out that there is another Isle beyond Hokkaido (Sachalin), which is inhabited by Ainu and full of Recources... Won't you try to capture it? The Historic development is important, but it would make more sense if the Player can really write History and not just change some Events...

This Way, I would even like it If I could make Laws and Taxes in an realistic Way. For Example: Death Penalty Yes/No, Tax on Trade 0-100%, Tax on Farming 0-100%, May Peasants own Weapons Yes/No... And the Game would calculate realistic results of my Gouvenership, that would be Cool The Harmony of Feather and Sword...

Why not give TW some Influence by "the Patritian" from Ascaron or "the Industrial Giant" to simulate your Society more realistic and allow to become a super-man leader that manages to feed his people instead of letting them Suffer (like in Medieval)

Design to give more Detail on Community:

Every Province contains a Top 5 of it's most important VIPs. These are Clerics, rich Tradesmen or Feudal Lords in this Region having an independent political view. This political View is displayed through their Religion and a favoured Faction, which are having influence on the Province and Gameplay. Tradesmen don't have a political View, but they are neccesary to support your Faction.

Examples ->

Saito Tenshi, Zen-Buddist Cleric
Religion: Buddhism
Income: 3000 Koku
Favored Faction: Ikko-Ikki
Owns: 15 Shrines, 3 Temples, 5 Units Sohei

Ishida Nobukane, Feudal Lord
Religion: Protestant Christian
Income: 5000 Koku
Favored Faction: Takeda (his Daimyo)
Owns: 3 No-Dachi Units, 5 Samurai-Archers, Citadel

Yoshi Baba, Tradesman
Income: 7000 Koku
Buisiness Development: +15% growth
Owns: Sake Factory, Shipyard, Oilmill

Don Domigo Pajero, Jesuit (note Jesuit= Christian Cleric)
Income: 5000 Koku
Favored Faction: Portugese
Owns: 5 Churches

Effects->

The Clerics and the Gouvanors are politically important, Tradesmen are useful awesome. The Buildings and Troops in a Region are now split up into two Groups: Clan Specific and Private. Clerics and Gouvanors may own Troops and Dojos to produce them (Clerics may additionally own Shrines and Temples influenting the Religion). These "Private" Troops will come to your support if the Province is attacked and you can also force the Guy to give them to you, BUT incase you have got some argue going appart with him these Troops can also become Rebells (incase you are to weak to beat him and he doesn't favor you Faction). Anyway, you may also give Troops to Gouvanors and Clerics to support them... Private Buildings are mostly owned by Tradesmen and display the "Industry", they produce X-tra Koku for you. If you don't like a Tradesman or are just interessted in his Money, you can by force aquire his Property (but this will have the Effect that no Tradesmen will settle in your Dukeship). SOMETIMES Tradesmen may also build a Weaponsfactory, which is from then on providing Musketeers to be trained by you (&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif.

Things you can do with the VIPs->

You can send Shinobi to find out which Faction they favor, you can send Heralds to bribe them to join your side,
you can send Ninjas to kill them (which has the Effect that their Property, doesn't matter if Troop or Building, is destroyed),
you can send a Jesuit and try to make them Christian [might cause a Christian Rebellion against the Daimyo incase the Gouvanor converted, Cleric converts delete the Guy (identic to kill him, just friendlier)].

Even if they don't have Provinces, the Portugese may send VIP Jesuits to Provinces of a Christian Daimyo. In Provinces containing Churches or Portuges Harbors, these Guys are automatically added to the VIP list. You may also make Laws that forbid (automatically kill) Jesuits or Buddhist Clerics, this Law simbolises if you tolerate the other Religion or not. If you don't have a Law against Christian Clerics, the possebility for a Christian Rebellion is 40% smaller. Same affects Ikko-Ikki Rebellions.
-------------------------

This new "Important-Guys" Feature might be complex but it gives Ninjas and Martirial Law much more sense. The Sameway you can now cause real damage through Sabotage and build realistic Conspiracys

hopefully arfter rtw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

i would love to see an updated shogun, and is it true that the samuri's were mostly made up of homo's?


FORZA ROMA

I really believe in a China:TW ... Including mongols, tartars, nestorians, kara-kitai, Tibet, Japan, Coreea ... It's the best alternative right now ... I mean, after RTW ...

It would be nice to have something along the terms of a Classical: Total War, mainly concerned with the Golden Age of Greece, the Persian Empire, the founding of the Hellenic Italy colonies and the first years of Rome (during and right after the Etruscan kings). China would be the next best Asia option. It had so many dynastical transitions and in-fighting in makes perfect for the faction-style TW. The only problem is it being too much like STW, as I believe they made war in a similar fashion, save that the Chinese had more of a stress on infantry. The Japanese did rely on Sun Tzu's Art of War, Sun Tzu was from China.

PS-Stephan, I believe that you're having spelling mistakes when translating to English. Simply the following: Fraction is Faction, Champain is Campaign, and Gouvaner is Governor. In American English Civilisation is Civilization, however you did spell it right if you've been taught English English http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif. Just so you don't sound them out when talking in English out loud http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif .

IF there was to be a 'Shogun 2' (and I fully accept the argument that other periods should get their chance) then I would personally like to see a different approach taken.

I would like the designers to look at old classics like Microprose's 'Sword of the Samurai' and the KOEI series (Genghis Khan etc) and incorporate some of the best concepts of those games.

1) An ongoing, long-term campaign that started around AD1100 and progressed to around AD1650. Technological advances, changes in tactics, troop types and forticications included. New clans emerging as old ones die. Heirs succeed dead lords. Expanding population, the growth of private trade, roads and cities. External events like the threat of the Mongols and the arrival of Europeans as well as natural disasters like plagues, famines etc.

2) Replace the simplistic 'Risk'-like strategic map with a detailed hex map that includes internal province modelling. In other words, the strategic campaign becomes just as interesting as the tactical battles - not just an excuse for two armies to meet.

3) A balance of three elements (three is good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif ) - role-play, strategy and battlefield tactics. Just like 'Sword of the Samurai' (now 'abandonware&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ April 13 2003,07:44)]I really believe in a China:TW ... Including mongols, tartars, nestorians, kara-kitai, Tibet, Japan, Coreea ... It's the best alternative right now ... I mean, after RTW ...

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are'nt nestorians arab christians?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (faisal @ May 10 2003,13:17)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ April 13 2003,07:44)]I really believe in a China:TW ... Including mongols, tartars, nestorians, kara-kitai, Tibet, Japan, Coreea ... It's the best alternative right now ... I mean, after RTW ...

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are'nt nestorians arab christians?

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I believe Nestorianism was one of the early church's doctrines that became anathema and heresy to the church leaders and was wiped out in Europe. I think Nestorianism's propagators migrated to Asia and converted steppe tribes and some Chinese giving a spark of truth to the legend of Prester John, a mythical fantastically rich Asian Christian king whose wealth sent many Europeans all over Asia trying to locate his kingdom.

I think Arabian Christians are called Coptic Christians.

yea id love it but dont think its gonna happen.

Coptic christians are in egypt,but in lebanon and parts of syria and baghdad(yes baghdad not iraq)there were christians called nestorians but thats long gone now(most are orthodox).

some nestorians lived among the mongol tribes ... you can find many informations by studying Genghis Khan's life ... It seems that the kindom of prester John existed, as the nestorian king protected Genghis and this one considered him his master for a long while ...

sorry, I speak from my memory, and all must seem to you pretty blurry ...