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If you are interested, you can download the excel file I have that shows the difference in stats between v1.1 and v1.0.
http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com/dow...difference.zip
The main changes are:
1. Elite cav are cheaper, ranges 20% to 26% reduction in cost.
2. Popular 100men foot troopers are more expensive, ranges from 14% to 20% increase in cost.
3. Arty units are 12men now, and are more expensive.
4. Alan Merc. Cav and Steppe Cav are more expensive.
5. Foot Knight is cheaper.
6. PaviseArbalester/xbow and arbalester are more expensive.
IMO, CA attempt to improve balance in the stats by changing the cost will only be effective in low florin games. I think now in a typical 10k game where 3/4 cav are used, with chivalric sergeants,ordered,sac.inf,spearmen etc, on average the cav (except alan cav) will be 1 valor higher than v1.0 games (maybe now more will use mounted sergeants,sahara-cav and the elite cav?), whereas the 100men spears cannot afford to maintain same valor level w/o sacrificing cav valor, or use less of these by employing more range units at valor0.
As the florin allocation go higher (say to $12000), the gameplay effectively is the same as v1.0 at $10000.
Just my 5 cents.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
loyal roach of Clan S.G.
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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I don't see how increased prices don't affect gameplay across the board?
the cost of upgrades are dependent on initial costs, thus, not only will spears be more costly, but higher valour spears will be, (proportionately), more costly.
The only limit to this is when cost is no concern at all, and I don't see how CA can be expected to balance for those games. When the florins allowed reaches many 10's of thousands, well then everybody had v4 sap, but I don't see that as a balancing issue.
[edit: oh and the link you provided doesn't appear to work, thanks for it though, I'll use it when it becomes available]
[This message has been edited by Papa Bear! (edited 11-06-2002).]
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Forget that tripod doesnt allow download of files if accessed from non-tripod site. Try going to
http://thesilvergazwa.tripod.com/links.html
and download from there.
On the balance, my feeling is that the main reason for cav not being as effective as most wished is that they are under-sized. So at higher florin games, where everything is near max-out, the 100men spear will still rule the day because their basic stats like size and combat bonus are the same, just that they cost more. CA can balance for the high florin games by adjusting these numbers.. but other balancing issues at other florin levels will come back to haunt us.
So in general, like in previous STW-MI, a particular stats is only balanced at the florin level it is designed for. I think most will still stay with 10k games as its more fun now I think.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
loyal roach of Clan S.G.
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 11-06-2002).]
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tootee,
There are other changes that don't show up in the stats or the costs. I would say just play and learn. There is a wider variety of usefull units now.
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Maybe the beta-testers can provide some info to the improvement, like the fatigue... is it changed? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
loyal roach of Clan S.G.
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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I wasn't aware of the stats of the alan and mounted sergeants, but if what someone told me the other day was correct,(alan 2-1, mounted 1,3?) then why on earth would alans need to be made worse in comparison to mounted sergeants? I suppose the use of cav to attack/charge, was to the alans advatnage. But on the surface I am puzzled as to why alans have been so popular when mounted sergeants are so much better. Perhaps 1 attack is worth more than 1 defend, due to the nature of how cav are used.
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How in the fag did they make pavise units more expensive? Oh wait did they do that to make archer units better? Still a boneheaded thing to do, as now unused units will be even more unused. On the other hand the advatnages of pavise units were in their unlimited ammo, not in their relative overall usefullness. Therefore this doen'st necessarily make it less useful. However in a rush situation it makes an already suicidal unit even more suicidal.
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I took archers in my 1st v1.1 game and realised they cant reach the pavise arbalester.. I think PA range has been improved, thus that may justified the extra cost.
Anyway I think the fatigue is changed.. the men dont get tired as easily as before.. anyone feel that too?
BTW the upgrade cost now is 1.7X for valor, 1.33 for weapon and 1.38 for armour. At 10k, one can hardly go above v3 I think.
Alan is a3d1h4 while MountedS is a2d3h2. Aan cav is available to all so that may explain their popularity over MountedS, as well as they have higher morale. Now that its cost is increased, those with option for MountedS have another attractive alternative I think.
Anyway thanks CA for the patch cos the foyer is really fish friendly at least, I think more stable, logoff real fast (4 sec max), logon fast too, and cleaner game list. Still trying to get used to "Y" key, one of the feature improvement that I appreciate the most.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
loyal roach of Clan S.G.
'Pa Si Buay Chao! Si Liao Ka Song!'
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Hm, pavs arb is still 300, and cheaper to upgrade. On the other hand previosly popular units such as FMAA, Feud.Srg, and Chiv.Srg are all costlier. Though I have played only 2 games as yet, it seems that cavs are definitely more useful and much more used as a result. I have seen tons of chiv.knights in a 8000 florin battle !!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
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lol, fish we posted at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Hm, the valor of meele units is usualy 1 less than before at a given florin level. On the other hand you can easily upgrade your arbs to v1 or v2 which makes little sense for me. Basicaly, it seems that this current upgrade-cost system creates a more evenly upgraded army. BTW, I always use mounted.srg http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Great job tootee !
I completely disagree with the increase in cost of artillery...in MP they already suck... 133% more expensive for the siege cannon??? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif madness I tell ya Madness! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.
How about archers? I feel all the ranged units (not artil.) should get a bit more range and power, as it is now, archers can ussually only fire 4 or 5 times, killing maybe 10 to 15 men before dying a honorless death and routing after they lost 3 men...
I think this calls for another "unofficial patch" like the 1.03 we had in STW, if anyone is intrested let me know, I'm wlling to help making it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.
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Online be my name Glorfindel. Lord of the Eldar.
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thanks for the info.
and, for charging into a flank, in wedge formation, higher attack is absolutely ideal. the idea for a cav flank is quickly inflicted casualties, so they enemy will break, ya know what I mean?
a charge into a flank that leaves the cav well protected is nice, but less melee=slower killing=more time between impact and routing.
plus the honor of the alans makes a diff, as when flanking or rear charging, their likely to get into some sticky situations, and if cav runs when between 2 units, its finished.
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Regarding the increased cost for valour upgrades, the way it works now is actually very good. Here's why:
The x1.7 cost means that for roughly the same price upgraded alan merc and mounted sergeants will be comparatively weaker than the mounted knights, e.g. chivalric knights.
Therefore if you have the available cash in the unit selection screen then purchasing a v0 mounted knight is a better option than buying an alan merc and upgrading it to comparable stats.
However, if you're strapped for cash the cheap alan merc still serves its purpose or if you have more than one slot left, you may consider 2 alan mercs instead of 1 mounted knight.
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=MizuDoc=
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Let's say you're strapped for cash. You've got 2 slots left. You've got a couple hundred left to spend. What do you do? Do you buy a unit that is cost ineffective just to fill two slots? No. Do you buy a unit that is cost effective and leave 1 slot unfilled? Possibly. There's a third option: Buy the cheapest 2 spears you can get. This way your overall army is cost effective, Your main fighting force is great. You got value for your money. You didn't sacrifice value two get those last 2 slots filled. You didn't take a 1 slot hit and go into the game 1 unit down. Instead you fille dthe slots with an incredibly cost effective unit(cheap spearmen) which can be placed behind your line of battle, or mixed in with your flankers as they go around the enemy's back side, protecting you from any cavalry there. These are also fodder for archer units. Can prtoect you from horse archers. ANd they cost you next to nothing. But you didn't sacrifice value for them. YOu dind't go intot he game shorting yourself a unit. And you actually got a pretty useful unit as well considering that it appears that cav are so important in 1.1(and used a lot in 1.0).
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anymapkoku,
Spears are now slightly more expensive across the board (ranging from 25-50 florins) and slightly less effective in battle. i.e. it's rumoured that it is now easier to disrupt their formation thus relieving them of their rank bonuses.
Only time will tell i suppose, however, i suspect that you'll find spear units to be less dominating than before.
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=MizuDoc=
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I haven't played 1.1 or even seen the stats yet, so if there's any disagreement I'll assume you are in the right.
But what I was saying was not so much based on cost as much as it is based on a spending as little as possible on a fodder unit, with the purpose of, not to have a cost effective unit, but rather to fill the slot as cheap as possible. With something usefull. Thus a cheap spear, 150 even, as long as it is cheaper than your commonly used cav unit, will suffice. However if the difference in price between the spear and cav is too small, then my theory is not as worthwhile. We msut remember that the cost of a valor 0 spearmen, even if raised to 150 flroins or 175, is still usually cheaper than a horse with valor added to it.
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It will be interestring to see whether a 150 florin spear unit will be more advantageous than a 175 florin mounted sergeant or a 200 florin alan merc.
The spears have much more men and anti-cav ability.
The alan merc and mounted sergeants have much better morale and manoeuvrability.
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=MizuDoc=
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Well I admit with the 25 florin difference there's not much of a reason to get spears. However as I said the cav is most likely going to get valor which gives the spear the advantage in terms of cost. Alans are out of the picture as now they cost more. So it's a close battle between mountedS and 150 spears. For 150 it might be better to just scrap the spear idea altogether but that's only if the mountedS is similiar in price.
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The advantage that the spear user has over any kind of cav is that ultimately no matter how maneuverable the cav is, the spear always knows where the cav will be. In 1.0 I always had 2 125 spearmen in back of my main line with one protecting each side, and then 2 more in front and in back of my flankers to protect them. If I saw that my opponent had 4 cav on one side I would move 3-4 spears to that side. You get the idea. No matter what he does he must use his cav in the battle or else they are as good as nothing. So you keep your spears by your fighting units and just wait for his horse.
[This message has been edited by anymapkoku (edited 11-06-2002).]
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Yep, very valid points.
However, three things to remember:
1) Cav now have a slightly raised fatigue level and therefore won't tire as quickly as they used to in 1.0. So be prepared for the spearmen to do a lot more chasing, the more twists and turns they do the less likely they'll be in a proper shape to receive their rank bonuses when combat is initiated.
2) A sudden dash of 3-4 cav from from one flank to the other will never be matched by 3-4 spearmen units stuck on one flank. I suppose this will depend on the quality of the opponent you're fighting, a very good cav micromanager could run your spearmen ragged.
3) If one spearman unit routs, chances are the others will swiftly follow. Now it's going to be more cost effective to generically increase valour across your units rather than increasing the valour of only certain units to 4 while leaving others at 0. Therefore morale will certainly be an issue for spearmen.
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=MizuDoc=
[This message has been edited by +DOC+ (edited 11-06-2002).]
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Thanx for the stats.
Great work.
Can i just ask though what %Delta means?
Thanx
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Delta, symbolised as a triangle, means "change", therefore %Delta means % change. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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=MizuDoc=
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Well Doc not really. As I said in my post, the spears don't need to do any chasing, they let the horse come to them.
Even supposing that 4 cav run to the other side really fast, eventually the spears wil get there and we know what will happen from there. Also keep in mind that I'll already have a spear there as well.
The morale isn't really a factor because my spearmen will only be fighting cav which they can beat. I also don't think a unit can be judged my morale as losing or winning a fight has more of an effect than merely it's starting morale.
Even suppossing the spear loses it's rank bonus, it gains it's anti cav bonus.
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Well, i suppose we'll just have to see how it all pans out on the battlefield over the next few weeks...
Maybe instead of a cheap cav unit one might take along a simple sword unit like a FMAA for 175 florins to deal with those pesky spears. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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=MizuDoc=
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i played and tested http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif and saw myself....
this patch is absolut not what we wanted or what we needed!
totee ur right in most of ur points!
still the moralbonusses are too big
....wont lsit all the major problems....
and sorry but to play this game with low valour isnt possible....its like 1k games in stw......
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still trying to be naieve but wouldnt it be possible that somehow, whenever the community makes his own version of teh stats where almost everyone can live with it?
instead of some action of the few we release a unitstat mod every week where every week more and more thing are improved...
mp only ofcourse
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play with 10 K then?
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=MizuDoc=
