Arcane Question about valor tracking per man...

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05-16-2003, 22:19
AgentBif

I believe CA people have confirmed that the valor of each individual soldier is tracked in the game so that when you merge two units, you are not losing your veterans.

However, does this also apply to the combat bonuses attained from valor?

Example:

I have 10 late royal knights with 4 valor and 10 late royals with 0 valor. When I merge them, the resulting unit should be an average valor of 2. Ok, the valor of the individuals is tracked so that when the greens die off, the vets still contribute their high valor to the unit.

In combat, valor adds +1 attack/defense and +2 morale per point. Do each of the men in the unit receive these combat bonuses according to the average reported valor of the entire unit or do they get bonuses according to their individual valor? I am concerned because the F1 screen reports the bonuses according to the average valor.

In other words, would I have:

10 vets with +2/+2/+4
10 greens with +2/+2/+4

Or will I have:

10 vets with +4/+4/+8
10 greens with +0/+0/+0

I believe I recall that morale of each man is watched and the whole unit doesn't break until some critical chicken mass is reached. Can you confirm that's how routing is determined?

If that were true, I am encouraged to think that valor combat bonuses are tracked per man... The whole reason I want to know, of course, is to determine whether it's a good idea to refill high valor fragment units by merging or retraining.

Thanks for your attention guys.
05-17-2003, 00:01
Papewaio

I think that each individual is tracked and calculated on their stats including health. The exception I think is morale which is done as a group.

If you look at the logfiles through a campaign you will notice that the high valour guys in a unit will have higher amount of kills in each battle then the greener ones and that the green guys tend to die out faster (did a whole STW campaign once where I followed the stats of a ashi unit from the start of the campaign to the end)... now it might just be my perception of what was happening, I would definitly like some confirmation from the CA guys.
05-17-2003, 01:30
The_Emperor

I think it depends on the ratio of the merge... a small number of new recruits has little effect on a unit that has only lost around 5 men. Units that have suffered heavy losses suffer a major drop in morale when they are retrained or merged with "Green" troops.

Such is expected in warfare.
05-17-2003, 01:52
AgentBif

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 17 2003,16:30)]I think it depends on the ratio of the merge... a small number of new recruits has little effect on a unit that has only lost around 5 men. Units that have suffered heavy losses suffer a major drop in morale when they are retrained or merged with "Green" troops.

What you are saying here are the straight-forward ramifications of computing the average valor of a unit. Essentially, you repeated the premise of the thread.

What I am looking for are definitive answers to the specific questions raised.
05-17-2003, 12:37
pdoan8

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (AgentBif @ May 16 2003,16:19)]10 vets with +4/+4/+8
10 greens with +0/+0/+0

I take a look at the logfile and I can confirm that each men has their own valour. The F1 shows the average valour of the whole unit. And the average valour seems to be the one effect on the bonus for the whole unit. Is it still calculate on the individual basis like you pointed out? May be one of the Devs could explain.

Unit Type: LateRoyalGhulamKnights
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Qutuz Çandarl
Kills This Battle: 153
Losses This Battle: 7
Inital Cost of Unit: 4541
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 2 3 4 4 12 0 VICTORIOUS
2 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
3 0 0 4 4 2 0 DEAD
4 0 2 4 4 5 0 DEAD
5 0 1 4 4 4 0 VICTORIOUS
6 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
7 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
8 0 0 4 4 1 0 VICTORIOUS
9 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
10 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
11 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
12 2 2 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
13 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
14 2 2 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
15 0 1 4 4 5 0 VICTORIOUS
16 2 2 4 4 1 0 VICTORIOUS
17 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
18 1 1 4 4 3 0 VICTORIOUS
19 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
20 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
21 0 1 4 4 1 0 VICTORIOUS
22 0 0 4 4 1 0 VICTORIOUS
23 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
24 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
25 2 2 4 4 10 0 VICTORIOUS
26 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
27 2 2 4 4 1 0 VICTORIOUS
28 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
29 2 2 4 4 2 0 DEAD
30 2 3 4 4 2 0 VICTORIOUS
31 2 2 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
32 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
33 0 2 4 4 3 0 VICTORIOUS
34 1 1 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
35 0 1 4 4 5 0 VICTORIOUS
36 0 2 4 4 7 0 VICTORIOUS
37 0 1 4 4 2 0 VICTORIOUS
38 0 0 4 4 0 0 VICTORIOUS
39 3 3 4 4 3 0 VICTORIOUS
40 0 1 4 4 2 0 VICTORIOUS

A little messy, but if you look at column 2 and 3, not all the number are the same and they are pre-battle valour (honor) and post-battle valour. This unit was replenished (retrain) before the battle. There are still some with no valour.
05-17-2003, 19:50
longjohn2

Ok. It's moderately complicated, so bear with me.

Valour is indeed tracked separetely for each man, and the unit's valour is roughly speaking the average of the valour in it.

The unit's valour is used when determining morale, as the game would get very messy if each soldier had his own morale behaviour. Think of it this way. In AgentBif's hyperthetical unit, the presence of the veterens steadies the green troops somewhat, but the green troops will still panic first. Once they start running, the vets know that it's devil take the hindmost, and they'll run too.

When it comes to combat bonuses, these depend on both the unit valour and the indiviudual's valour. The portion from the unit's valour represents such factors as teamwork and esprit de corps. The portion from an individual's valour represents his own personal skill and experience. So the combat bonus is formed by adding a man's personal valour to his unit valour, and then splitting it between attack and defence (and before you ask, it's done in a cunning way that means you don't lose out due to rounding)

So when we say that a unit gets +1 attack and +1 defence per valour point, this is only true for units where all the soldiers have the same valour. In the hyperthetical unit, the green guys will get +1 attack and defence whereas the vets will get +3 attack and defence.

The f1 screen shows the stats for the unit as whole, because otherwise it would get rather long :-).
05-17-2003, 20:10
AgentBif

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ May 18 2003,10:50)]Ok. It's moderately complicated, so bear with me.

Ok, thanks for answering all the questions John

What it comes down to then is that you DO lose out by adding green soldiers to a high valor fragment:

1) morale of the unit is strongly degraded
2) combat bonuses for the vets are partially degraded

Unfortunately, that's gonna make my army management more complicated because now I'll be reluctant to dilute the veteran units... Wielding lots of fragment units in battle is gonna be more difficult.
05-17-2003, 20:23
Parmenion

I wonder how the troops are distributed in a unit then. Are they mixed randomly or do the veterans stand at the front and the greens at the rear?

I know the Greek phalanx had the middle-aged warriors at the front for a solid line, followed by the greenhorns in the middle where they couldn't run away. The aged veterans brought up the rear using their skill and experience to steady the unit and keep it under control.

Is this how units are formed do you think?
05-17-2003, 21:09
Lehesu

Interesting question. I would prefer to have the greenies in the front, and spare the veterans their lives. Perhaps they are randomly distributed?
05-17-2003, 23:23
AgentBif

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Lehesu @ May 18 2003,12:09)]Interesting question. I would prefer to have the greenies in the front, and spare the veterans their lives. Perhaps they are randomly distributed?

Yes, a very good question, I'd like to know how it works too.
05-18-2003, 00:02
The_Emperor

A good question...

Valor Valor Valor. Strange how this works yes?
05-18-2003, 12:47
Papewaio

Just chuck a green unit in front and put a vet unit behind... preferably a green non-elite in front and a elite vet unit behind.

Don't worry about 'diluting' a unit. Valour is important but being outnumbered is lethal. If you really want to look after a vet unit, campaign along with 2 or 3 identical units and 1 or 2 reserve units. The reserve units don't need armour or weapons upgrades either, just the highest available starting valour (0, 1 or 2).

The highest valour unit gets replenished by the next highest while the lowest valour unit gets all the green recruits that are being brought in by the reserve units that march from the army in the field and the training ground.
05-18-2003, 20:56
AgentBif

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ May 19 2003,03:47)]Don't worry about 'diluting' a unit. Valour is important but being outnumbered is lethal.

Yes, it depends on what type of unit you're dealing with and how you use it. Cavalry, for example can endure lower numbers if you only use them for flanking or rear attacks. Mainline infantry or spears would be endangered by being understrength.

The balance between not retraining vets and not using them understrength is to only refill vets with other veteran fragments.
05-19-2003, 17:36
rory_20_uk

Thanks for the info regarding the effect of experience on troops. It was obvious that there was some effect on units that had higher valour, but I have not seen it rationalised before.
As concerns the dilution of units, I think that it depends on what the unit is expected to achieve in a battle. For example, a unit of spearman I would just top up whenever I could, as they are just there to sit in the middle. My Crack troops I would be much more careful with, as they need to have the highest stats possible for the punch in the side of the enemy, and unit numbers are less important here, as I hope that there will not be that much attrition, as they are they for one decicive fight, then let the dross chase the enemy.