English Billmen

I'm playing as the English right now, hard setting, and I've encountered an interesting problem. The billmen, which are armored and have a bonus against armor and cavalry, don't do squat for me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif I've sent them against cavalry and they get cut to pieces, their numbers run straight down and they rout, also they do little or no damage to the enemy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/shock.gif I'd heard that they were as good as pikemen, who don't seem to have that problem. Have other people had a similar experience? I've gone back to my trusty militia sargents.

Yes i agree with you and the thing that annoys me is that whenever the AI has them, they are wicked. What the hell is going on? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif

That being said, that Billman are bunch of obnoxious runners, what are the best spear units, that are generally available?
If I don't control Switzerland I usually go with the tried and true militia sargents. They come in big units, they inflict a consistently high amount of damage, and they are disinclined to run.

Hm... If the enemy generals were good, then nothing can help you besides ranged combat.

But Billmen are supposed to rip heavy cavalry apart, and they have always done that for me. Just don't let hem take the charge head on, they will suffer from that. Let spears do that (they negate the heavy cavalry charge).

Yeah i agree with Kraxis. Billmen are attack troops, i mean that they should attack cavalry and not get ridden down by it. The other thing that makes a huge diffrence is valor. If your billmen had 0 valor and the enemy cavalry had say 4 - then you are in a world of hurt.

Having a good general in charge of an army can make or break battles - as it should.

I've used them in a variety of situations and I've always had problems, they seem like a weak unit to me. Even when they attack they take very heavy casualties and rout quickly.

The Important thing about Billmen is that they are NOT Spear units (even if an upgraded spearmaker is used to get them).

Billmen can hold their own against Cavalry in the open, but they lose nearly as many as they kill against Elite Knights.

Billmen have more in Common with Halberdiers than Spearmen. Spearmen are good out in the open plain where their supporting rank bonus and the wall of spears can be used to greatest effect

Given that Spearmen lose their supporting rank Bonus in a wood, they are quite weak at attacking cavalry in the Woods... Billmen on the other hand are great at attacking and don't need a supporting rank bonus, so they are much more effective in the woods than Spearmen.

The lesson: Billmen are great anti-cavalry forces in Woods (or when fighting downhill)... But they are no substitute for Spearmen in the open fields.

When I play as English I usually like 3 or 4 billmen in my armies as choppers in place of FMAA, CMAA, or FSgts. As others have said, use spears to pin down any cav then throw the bills at them. They are a versatile unit able to bring down cav quickly (as long as they don't eat their charge) and able to mince most other foot units. Make sure you build up armour/morale buildings and only in Mercia for the +1 valour bonus.

edit: meant militia sergeants, not Fsgts above.

Sorry but what are FMAA and CMAA? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Sep. 08 2003,20:56)]Sorry but what are FMAA and CMAA? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif

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FMAA = Feudal Men At Arms
CMAA = Chivalric Men At Arms

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

An alternative to billmen, halberdiers or swiss halberdiers is chivalric foot knights. They are effectively halberdiers, only with a melee bonus of 4, morale of 8 and elite.

The building and maintenance requirements are kind of stiff considering you have to train chiv knights and dismount in battle.

When in battle they have the default of being at engage at will. Will putting them in hold fromation to take the initial shock of the charge make a difference?

Passing thoughts....

-Don't use Billmen vs sword units unless the billmen are significantly higher valor.
-Never chase enemy cav, let them come to you.
-Wait for enemy to arrive, charge when ready.
-If wanting to absorb enemy charge switch to WEDGE formation, this makes the enemy cavalry all rush for the unit leader which is the tip of the wedge, making him the brunt of the charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
- Use wedge to attack powerful cav not only it absorbs charge better than Hold Hold (IMO), you kill more cav this way
-Swithc to normal if the bills are losing slightly if losing badly get support, e.g you own valor 1 hobilars in the enemy cav rear.
-Never allow a flank or rear attck on your bills, then it does not matter what formation they will pain.

well.. the only thing i like about the english is their long bowmen... i usually don use billmen much in battles.. prefered the militas. probly just for swows during parade but when it comes to squatting in the mud the it's the miliatias for me.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Sep. 08 2003,21:44)]I'm playing as the English right now, hard setting, and I've encountered an interesting problem. The billmen, which are armored and have a bonus against armor and cavalry, don't do squat for me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif I've sent them against cavalry and they get cut to pieces, their numbers run straight down and they rout, also they do little or no damage to the enemy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/shock.gif I'd heard that they were as good as pikemen, who don't seem to have that problem. Have other people had a similar experience? I've gone back to my trusty militia sargents.

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I agree and did exactly the same thing. They look good though.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]If wanting to absorb enemy charge switch to WEDGE formation, this makes the enemy cavalry all rush for the unit leader which is the tip of the wedge, making him the brunt of the charge

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hmmmmm sounds like this could work wonders against bad those evil governors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

If you have success using Malitia Sergeant, then you should be very successful with Billmen, especially those from Mercia.

Stats wise, MS only have 2 charge bonus more than Bill. Other stats, either the same or Bill are better. Bill also have both bonus vs armour and cav while MS only have bonus vs armour.

Using the battle calculator from this site, Billmen beat MS. +v1 Billmen beat +v0 CMAA, AUM. +v2 Billmen beat +v0 VG, JHI. Amazingly, at +v0, Billmen beat all of the toughest heavy cav such as CK, Lancer, Gothic Knight, Kat.

I use lots of Billmen in my English campaign. Very good flanker, cav-killer (not as direct attacker, unless they have good upgrades).