A smart way to deal with the Mongols!

Printable View

09-17-2003, 13:13
Alexander the Great

Dealing with the Mongols in a few steps:

1)First you bring in Khazar your best assassin(I used a 6 valoured one)and about 20-25 emissaries in anticipation of the Mongol Invasion.

http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/...earance600.jpg [/IMG]

2)You simply assassinate the Khan(I had a 50% chance of killing him)

http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/...golsEnd600.jpg[/IMG]

Now the Mongol rebels continue advancing a bit...
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/...ts/mrebels.jpg [/IMG]

3)And finally you bribe them

http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/requests/brains.jpg [/IMG]

That's it guys

Of course it's not easy preparing to do all this stuff...
You must have patience and a lot of money...
09-17-2003, 13:17
TheSilverKnight

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif Bravo Good strategy
09-17-2003, 13:27
motorhead

You can easily use agents to overthrow any AI faction, but where's the fun in that? And from your screenshots you already control around 90% of the map, so how is it not easy to build a bunch of emissaries and train up a few assasins? It's child's play IMO.
09-17-2003, 13:34
Alexander the Great

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 17 2003,07:27)]You can easily use agents to overthrow any AI faction, but where's the fun in that? And from your screenshots you already control around 90% of the map, so how is it not easy to build a bunch of emissaries and train up a few assasins? It's child's play IMO.

Ok,then why don't you try it yourself if it is so easy?I played on hard level and could have claimed lesser victory by 1194.Do you think conquering the world before the Mongols emerge is so easy?
Biulding an empire like that took me months
09-17-2003, 13:52
motorhead

Sorry, I guess my post does sound a bit dismissive. But, I play the game a bit more and on expert and usually finish games in 2 weeks, so i've done quite a bit. I've played games utilizing assasins and inquisitors and the AI is usually very poor in defending itself. IMO it's more challenging to fight the Horde than just decapitate it.

Edit: I usually play games starting in high (so the impact of the horde is greater). If i start on early i usually have to hold off on 100% to allow the Horde to make an appearance.
09-17-2003, 14:06
Bevan of Hertfordshire

Alexander[B]

Trouble with that tactic is the upkeep costs, you'll probably sink into debt quicker than a man with his feet in concrete.
09-17-2003, 14:13
Alexander the Great

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Bevan of Hertfordshire @ Sep. 17 2003,08:06)]Alexander[B]

Trouble with that tactic is the upkeep costs, you'll probably sink into debt quicker than a man with his feet in concrete.

When you got about 30K of projected profits(which was the case when I bribed the Mongols)you don't need to worry at all.
09-17-2003, 14:14
Shahed

Hey Alex what about the replay of the valor 20 Landesmen ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
09-17-2003, 14:17
motorhead

Looks like he's rolling in money. As long as they're neutral/allied, there's around 10 coastal/island provinces that will provide plenty of florins in trade income. Note in the screenies that his cash went up about 90K between 1231 and 1234.
09-17-2003, 14:28
Alexander the Great

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ Sep. 17 2003,08:14)]Hey Alex what about the replay of the valor 20 Landesmen ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Do you want me to send it over to you?
09-17-2003, 14:57
Alexander the Great

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 17 2003,07:52)]Sorry, I guess my post does sound a bit dismissive. But, I play the game a bit more and on expert and usually finish games in 2 weeks, so i've done quite a bit. I've played games utilizing assasins and inquisitors and the AI is usually very poor in defending itself. IMO it's more challenging to fight the Horde than just decapitate it.

Edit: I usually play games starting in high (so the impact of the horde is greater). If i start on early i usually have to hold off on 100% to allow the Horde to make an appearance.

I agree that it is not so interesting to deal with the Mongols in this way,that's why I'll load and fight them.
But it's not that it should be rejected.I came up with the idea of assassinating the Khan and bribing his army decades before he arrived,so the implementation of this idea really striked meI only had an idea.I couldn't imagine at first that it could work
And there are some other secrets about this operation that I won't reveal.
09-17-2003, 15:37
motorhead

Well, you must be a master spy to have secrets about this operation that I won't reveal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif. Simply put, picking off the head of the Horde (or any AI faction for that matter) is easy and not much of a challenge, especially since you already control the map. It can be fun as a diversion but I wouldn't classify this thread ...smart way to deal with the Mongols A MUST READ. Next time you use this smart way why not load up the likely invasion provinces with 30-40K troops as this always ensures an equal or greater Mongol invasion. Imagine the glory of bribing even more rebels when the game is nearly over anyway.

End of attention span for this thread.
09-17-2003, 16:22
Dhepee

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TogakureOjonin @ Sep. 17 2003,10:46)]IMHO: Well done. You've applied one of my favorite of Sun Tzu's principles (that goes something like this): It is the epitome of excellence when a general can win without fighting.

I play these games to exercise strategy, not just military tactics on the battlefield. Thanks for sharing.

I agree. If you don't handle the horde quickly and efficiently they start to throw the balance of power way off. I've noticed that the Horde makes factions in the east move aggresively to the west, which hurts if you are in the way.

Bedides it's a good strategy even if you don't control 90% of the map, or maybe espicially if you don't. If you have a solid prescense in the west, well developed provinces and several large stacks, and you suddenly get a handful of eastern provinces and huge armies in the matter of a couple of turns then your eastern armies can move west and your western armies can move east. The factions in the middle won't be able to cope with both and voila' you have conquered Europe.

BTW, I've noticed that it's easier to get the leader of the Horde with assasins than other faction leaders because he's usually in provinces without those damned border forts that like to eat 5 star hired killers for breakfast and he doesn't have agents of his own protecting him.
09-17-2003, 18:12
Russ Mitchell

Well, yes... but playing as if you had a court prophet is a bit of a cheat, is it not?

Now, losing your Cuman allies after their prince is assassinated, and STILL winning at Mohi...

THAT would be impressive...
09-17-2003, 18:40
The_Emperor

Due to the sheer insolence of the Horde turning up on my doorstep, I prefer to make them suffer in battle for every step they take in my land...

But I like the Horde's appearances, they add a real challenge to the game midway through and give you some of your most glorious battles (Come on when else will you fight thousands of warriors in a single battle and leave the field so full of dead you struggle to see grass?)

There is one problem with your strategy... If you don't bribe the Mongols quick enough they will re-emerge That can be nasty and often the former Mongols will rejoin their masters when they turn up again.
09-18-2003, 03:16
Oaty

Actually that can be a very good startegy at times. Remember there are 100's of ways to complete total domination and just because 1 doenst have the flavour you like it may appeal to someone else.
09-18-2003, 04:09
Omar Mena

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TogakureOjonin @ Sep. 17 2003,09:46)]You've applied one of my favorite of Sun Tzu's principles (that goes something like this): It is the epitome of excellence when a general can win without fighting.

Actually it goes like this: Subjugating the enemies army without battle is the true pinnacle of excellence. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
09-18-2003, 05:49
flyd

If you have a lot of money, but a low income, you could also bribe them all, but then disband all (or most) of them so the support costs won't kill you.
09-18-2003, 06:56
Nowake

As someone said before, where is the fun? ANd most of all, the accuracy?
09-18-2003, 07:28
HopAlongBunny

Nicely played Alexander http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

I imagine the fun is in seeing if it works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
09-18-2003, 13:50
CarolusXII

Knowing exactly when the Horde shows up is a huge advantage. About 15 years before they do show up, I start giving up ( and razing) provinces that are in the path of the invasion route which gives the other factions (say the Turks or Russians) time to build up sizeable armies to contest the Horde's invasion. They slug it out with the Horde and by the time the invasion has reached my pulled back but strenthened borders, the Horde is but half it's original strength...and ripe for conquest. I regain my lost provinces plus the ones the Horde took from the Turks, Russians and/or others. I don't fear the Horde...I use them, and it almost always works.
09-18-2003, 17:54
brent_james

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Alexander the Great @ Sep. 17 2003,07:34)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 17 2003,07:27)]You can easily use agents to overthrow any AI faction, but where's the fun in that? And from your screenshots you already control around 90% of the map, so how is it not easy to build a bunch of emissaries and train up a few assasins? It's child's play IMO.

Ok,then why don't you try it yourself if it is so easy?I played on hard level and could have claimed lesser victory by 1194.Do you think conquering the world before the Mongols emerge is so easy?
Biulding an empire like that took me months

Yeah but that doesn't have anything to do with the actual strategy of dealing with the Mongols. Most people don't own that much when the mongols come around.

Halberdiers work great against the mongols http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
09-18-2003, 20:42
Alexander the Great

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Sep. 18 2003,01:28)]Nicely played Alexander http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

I imagine the fun is in seeing if it works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Exactly man
Now you understand what I'm saying http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
09-18-2003, 21:17
Alexander the Great

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 17 2003,09:37)]Well, you must be a master spy to have secrets about this operation that I won't reveal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif. Simply put, picking off the head of the Horde (or any AI faction for that matter) is easy and not much of a challenge, especially since you already control the map. It can be fun as a diversion but I wouldn't classify this thread ...smart way to deal with the Mongols A MUST READ. Next time you use this smart way why not load up the likely invasion provinces with 30-40K troops as this always ensures an equal or greater Mongol invasion. Imagine the glory of bribing even more rebels when the game is nearly over anyway.

End of attention span for this thread.

Well that's how it went:
I was constantly producing emissaries in a province and had one assassin killing them.
MY OWN EMISSARIES
That's the secretAnd that's how he gained valour in quite a short time.He didn't have to move around chasing enemy emissaries.Nor did he have to cross enemy border forts.

And the other more amazing strategy that I used(always in my opinion) was producing assassins at several provinces and having them killed by trying to kill my own commanders
In that way several of them eventually gained the HIGH SECURITY v/v which gives +3 valour,-3 acumen.That's how I had many commanders of mine with extraordinary valourLike 59 Viking Landsmenn with 19 valour on the Battlefield
And if you don't believe me check this out:

And check out this replay:
Index of/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload
09-18-2003, 21:28
Alexander the Great

Here]Two replays that you might be interested in
09-18-2003, 21:36
Alexander the Great

Well,I'm sorry.It seems that some problem occured.Just go to the recent uploads section and you'll find proof of what I'm saying.
09-19-2003, 06:03
Revenant69

Hmmm, I am sorry to say this Alexander but this method falls in the category of cheap. It is on par with mass spies causing rebelllions tactic and IMHO it ruins the game. I am glad that you discovered this strategy if for nothing else than for your personal enjoyment. I , on the other hand, try to stay away from cheap methods because they make the game less fun and less challenging.

My 2 cents.
09-19-2003, 09:38
motorhead

As much as I hate to keep this thread alive, I'm going to reply as I'm a glutton for punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/wacko.gif . It is a wonderful thing that you have discovered these methods, I applaud your ingenuity and devotion to the game. However, of the methods and strategies you use:

#1 Using assasins to eliminate a factions ruling line, causing all their troops to turn rebel.
#2 Using other agents (emissaries,priests,alims,etc) as targets to train up your assasins.
#3 Manipulating events in a very unrealistic manner to improve valour (assasins used to get high security, etc.)

These have been previously discussed in these forums. They are not secrets or anything new to those who are fairly regular readers. I would suggest you read over older posts and also check out the Library--->MTW forum which contains many archived threads to gain insight into what has already been done. Dont' keep reinventing the wheel.

Some other previously posted, high impact methods that I would categorize as cheezy or cheating:

- Spy rushing, especially effective in pre-VI games. Put 10 or more spies in an enemy province and it is nearly guaranteed that it will rebel, regardless of loyalty buildings or garrison size. Your spies quickly gain valour which makes them more effective and soon nearly immune to border forts. Soon you can sweep your enemies into rebellion with an army of 50+ high valour spies.
- Rebel training: Cause recurring rebellions to occur in your own province. No loyalty+ buildings, no garrison, max taxes. When rebellion breaks out move a defending army immediately into province. Repeat over and over until your generals and troops gain lots of command stars, valour and vices. Use this enough times and you will get high command generals who often gain 'Field Defense Specialist' (+3 command on defense) and lots of troops who have gained valour through continuous and manufactured battles
- (edit) Forgot a great muslim tactic: Create many jihads, conquer enemy province but leave next turn. Launch all jihads at once with enough troops to conquer the objective province. You gain troops on the cheap (500 florins to build jihad, always produces more than 500 florins worth of troops), and +1 influence to the ruler for each jihad that invaded (province and general loyalty).

I am not telling you how to enjoy your game, each person should use the game to their personal satisfaction. However, some players feel the game AI is generally weak (myself included, search for posts about iron or titanium man rules for others who feel the same way) and feel using exploits or unrealistic methods is taking too much advantage of the system.

Someone earlier mentioned their appreciation of this Mongol decapitation tactic as it employed the Sun Tzu principle that winning without fighting is the epitome of excellence. Utilizing spies, assasins and inquisitors I can quite easily reduce all factions into rebel hordes. All I need is a decent trade network which can be manipulated by isolating a few opponents onto island provinces then moving ships out of their zones to gain quick ceasefires. This provides lots of weak trading partners to fuel trade income to bribe the many, many rebellions I make. Using these methods I'm sure I could get 100% domination in around 100 years fighting less than 10 battles. Does this make me a god or a demi-god then? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
10-02-2003, 14:46
Devastatin Dave

i must say, your strategy was treully art Alexander. I salute you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif