Simply question: What is it good for?
I also heard there's a limit for combat stats (which is 9). Does bonus versus cav count towards this limit?
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Simply question: What is it good for?
I also heard there's a limit for combat stats (which is 9). Does bonus versus cav count towards this limit?
I did some tests a while ago with the charge bonus of units, and it seems that insane charge bonuses (like 80 for hobilars) just don't work. There was a little discussion at totalwar.com, and it appears that 9 is indeed the maximum. There are some mods which have units with higher charge (like french knights in KekvitIrae's or Sicilian knights in Re Berengario's), but I doubt if this particular feature will be implemented correct.
As for bonus vs cavalry, I guess it is just another combat bonus (just as charge bonus), so maybe there is a limit for this stat too.
I was not sure about the things I wrote above, so I just did some other tests:
test1: changed every combat stat for halbardiers to 12, did a custom battle vs. feudal sergeants, halbardiers killed about 30 and lost 0 before FS routed
test2: changed every combat stat for halbardiers to 16, did a custom battle vs. feudal sergeants, halbardiers killed about 40 and lost 0 before FS routed
test3: changed every combat stat for halbardiers to 16, changed every combat stat for FS to 9, did a custom battle between the two. Halbardiers killed about 70 and lost 1 before FS routed
(I also changed morale to 12/16/9, that's why the FS kept fighting in the last test)
So, it seems that the hand-to-hand combat stats can be higher than 9. What about the charge bonus?
test4: peasants (with morale 12, charge 40) vs. hobilars. At impact both units lost about the same number of men (8), after that hobilars were winning easily, peasants routed with about 30 men left, hobilars had 26 men present.
And what about the bonus vs. cavalry?
test5: peasants vs. lancers. Peasants had attack and defence bonus of 100 vs. cav. Peasants killed 21 and lost 0 before lancers routed. So the bouns vs. cavalry can exceed 9. (if this wasn't the case the peasants should have an attack of 7 and 5 defence vs. the lancers, while lancers have 5 attack and 7 defence, so this should give both units about the same number of casualties).
Conclusion: only the charge bonus can't exceed 9 (which is a bit of a shame, because the cavalry charge, even a frontal one, should be really devastating against any unit that doesn't hold a pike or spear)
Hal9k,
I can't figure out what the Unit Base Strength does. Can anyone make test and report back???
cutepuppy,
I have read about the maximum charge value ... but is there a minimum?
0?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
-9?
-infinite?
really don't know what the units base strength is.
cutepuppy,
can you make some test to find out just how low we can go with charge value?
And also what happes with units base strength
It is quite see the exact value of charge in battle. If you press f1 in battle you can see the attack, defence, armour, morale and cav bonus values, even if there's armour piercing or rank bonus, but not what the charge bonus is. But it wouldn't be very logic to assume that a performing a charge would decrease the attack value. So why would you want a charge bonus lower then 1?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
This is becoming way too theoretical.
btw, has anyone ever tried what a negative walk/run/charge speed does? Are your soldiers running backward then or is it just impossible?
Well Attack, Defence and Charge can be negative and CA use some negative values. Also the Production files could produce units with more than 9 charge that is why it is strange.
The negative charge value will bring balance to the mods where very week (at charge) units mix with very powerful. i.e. barbarians in open formation Vs a Hoplitic phalanx or the Companions. For these you need a charge value from 0 to ~20 or 22 these differences can be grater if you attempt to make units of the Bronze age and then you have barbarians with no armour and clubs and the Mycenaean heavy chariots. Reducing that to the negative will give you a good -10 to 9. I use it in HTW but at the moment cant afford to change values there and test the result.
OK, I did some tests:
with a negative speed, soldiers are indeed walking backward. But it doesn't happen in a coordinated manner, every soldiers just walks in a random direction. And they start to walk the moment the battle begins (without giving them the order to walk. Even order them to attack a unit, won't stop them)
I varied the charge bonus for halberdiers to 0, -2 and -20 and tested them against feudal sergeants. The number of casualties at impact doesn't seem to change a lot, so I guess (but I'm not sure), that the minimum effective charge bonus is 0, no matter what you state in the prod file.
I "think" the base strength is a modifier that is applied to one or more of the base unit stats, which I assume would be attack, defense and perhaps morale.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
The standard value is 80, but you'll notice that units with poor defensive stats are given lower values. For example, regional attack units like Clansmen have very low values, as do artillery units and others that should not engage in melee. A few units of the Huscarle-type have values over 80, like Varangian Guardsmen and Viking Huscarles.
Looking through the text, though, there are some crazy values, and others that don't make sense, so there's a chance that this value is no longer used by the game.
I think they were included to account for cases in which the master formula used to set all the unit values didn't work properly. I had this problem with the formula I constructed to set unit costs, so I know a little about why this setting was necessary.
What I have done is to set all the units to 80, then reduce peasant-type units like Billmen, Militia Sgts. and missile units back to 60. I left the artillery alone, except for setting the Trebuchet to 10. This way, if it is used, it will be applied properly imo, and if it doesn't, that fine too, since I didn't factor in its effect when I made out the unit stats.
As to the combat stats, I think the rule is that there can be no difference between units greater than nine when they meet in battle. The way the game works, it takes the difference in attack and defense values between opposing units, and each point translates to a 10% increase or decrease in the chances of hitting the opponent.
Say, if, after all factors have been included, a unit with 7 attack and 4 defense engages with a unit with 3 attack and 3 defense.
Well, the first unit would have a (7-3)x10%= 40% bonus chance of hitting the opponent. Then the opponent would get his turn to attack, where he would have a (3-4)x10%= -10% bonus chance of hitting the first unit.
I'm probably not exactly right with my explanation here, but this is a good approximation of how it works. You can probably find a clear definition somewhere in the Repository, since this is a frequently-asked question, and I remember CA's ECS making a long, detailed post explaining it back last Spring.