Upon the good advice of Gregoshi, I hereby declare the creation of this Silmarillion:Total War topic.
Now, where to begin?
Avarin.
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Upon the good advice of Gregoshi, I hereby declare the creation of this Silmarillion:Total War topic.
Now, where to begin?
Avarin.
Wow, 1/13/2004,00:00, that sure was auspiscious http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-sunny.gif
So begins the great Mod.
Avarin.
I have always thought the First Age was by far the best setting for any type of Tolkein game. It out shines all others in scope, grandeur, and possibility to confront the true Dark Lord and his vast hosts.
It could have some of the most wicked factions ever.
The Eldar (Elves):
Noldor(aggressive and noble)
divided between the houses of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin
Teleri (defensive but powerful when roused)
Dark Elves (secretive and friends with the dwarves)
Vanyar (most powerful and are Valar-like)
I forgot the names of the ship-builders
The Edain (Men):
House of Bëor
House of Hador
House of Haleth
Easterlings
also the Numernorians could come later and be like the Mongols, advance weapons, superior units but would be 'cursed/weakened' when their island vanishes
Dwarves
Durin’s Folk
Dwarves of Belegost
Dwarves of Nogrod
Race of Morgoth
Fortress of Angband
Stronghold of Utumno
could gain 'elvish' units when they capture a province since Morgoth usually enslaved elves rather than execute them
Also the Valar could come and wreak havoc on the Map and after a turn all the factions and their provinces would be messed up and a new set of enemies would appear.
Yeay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-2thumbsup.gif
Great mod in the works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-2thumbsup.gif
When do you think we can our hands on it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-beam.gif
With the success of the movies, I suspect LOTR is considered much more sexy to do. But I agree Silmarillion is suited for large scale warfare.
They are already working on a LOTR mod. You can see some screenshots in the Mead Hall (Story / PBM forum).Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Playable factions so far include the Rohirrim and Isengard.
I think those factions could be whittled down a little bit. The Teleri are the ship builders, but they could be left out because they never returned to Middle Earth. The Vanyar also, needn't be a faction since they only returned to Middle Earth along with the Valar. As for the Dark Elves, they could be mercs available to the Sinda faction, because they never were a defined kingdom after Denethor was killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
The three houses of men would be fine also, but I would make the Easterlings part of the Morgoth faction, or mercs. The Numenoreans would be out of place since they appeared later and were actually an amalgamation of the three houses of men.
Nogrod and Belegost would be fine too, but the house of Durin weren't in the picture at the time.
Also, Morgoth's faction should probably be unified, rather than split.
It really would be difficult to solve the game balance issues and still preserve consitency with the Silmarillion.
Game balance is going to be a huge problem, as the only reason Morgoth was defeated was because of an alliance, and, see as how alliances count for next to nothing in M:TW, it would be insanely hard to beat him. You would have to seriously diminish his power in order to make it playable.
Actually Morgoth was always defeated by the Valar. The Noldor defeated his armies but they didnt take Angband(?), they just surrounded it.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
An idea would be to have Ulmo be like the pope (but of lesser influence and only to Elves), since he's the only Valar that took time with the affairs of Middle-Earth.
But how to involve Gothmog and his Balrogs (kinda like a giant Kensai unit) or Glaurung and his Dragons (they fly right? and dwarves should have a higher defense for them).
Will this mod wait for Rome:TotalWar's new engine?
Glaurung did not have wings. Ancalagon was the first winged dragon.
I had thought of starting a Silmarillion TW mod project for some time, but due to a number of problems i decided against it. Some being what you have said here.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Another big reason for me deciding against a first age of LOTR mod was the simple fact that i didn't think MTW's buildings (farms and churches) would fit into the the period. For example, Gondolin (the hidden city) was told to be completly white with high white walls and such, and little wood shacks just didn't look right imo.
if memory serves, Utummno was destroyed after the first war with Morgoth. By the Time the Noldor had returned to Middle-earth the dark lord only had Angband in The Iron Mountains.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
IIRC they did not lose their Island until the second age, and that was for the fact that they had been corrupted by Sauron and ticked into making war upon Valinor. Elendil and Isildur fled to ME and founded Arnor and Gondor for that reason. It depends on when this mod is set, First age or Second, if that feature should be included.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
That might work, maybe give him a single province (say the Island of Balar). That may keep the Elves in line for a while and allow them to ally against Morgoth.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
The Noldor elves could never defeat him alone, and the Valar knew this from the begenning. As Angband was to fortified to actually enter, they laied seige to it but thatfailed as many times the siege was attacked and eventually broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Durin's folk can not be included, For Durin the Deathless built his halls in Kazad-dum, far from Beleriand. True the Dwarves spoke of it often and how it's wealth was great, but it was only a name to the elves for they never ventured there in this age.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Two factions would be insanly hard to implement, one being the Elves of Nargrothrond, and the other is the Elves of Gondolin.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Nargrothrond laid long hidden from Morgoth, but they conducted a secret war against him, using hit and run tactics and ambushes to decimate any army sent down into Talath Dirnen. It was not until they built a brige across the river Narog and made open war upon Morgoth did he actually find the city, and after their defeat at the battle of Tumhalad (sp?) the city was sacked.
Gondolin was another special case, it was in the encircling mountains and its skies were guarded by the King of the Eagles who lived nearby. It is said there were seven gates that guarded the only pass into Gondolin, and passed them was a narrow valley. However eventually Morgoth sacked and destroyed Gondolin, this is where Glorfindel fought the Balrog.
Hope this information has helped, good idea though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gif . If this mod is made it will be the best imho.
How about using 'Crusades' against Morgoth. Its like a big allied army right?
In my opinion, the trick here is to get something started, any further details to make the Mod Beleriand-accurate would have to follow. Once some initial progress is evident, the Mod would take shape faster from then on. Is Avarin going to develop this? Im mod-illiterate but I can learn, moslty Im an artist/graphics so I can help in that area.
Alliances would be much easier to make, and the elves would only break them with each other to fight over the Silmarils.
The elves could beat Morgoth and often did. Years after all the fire and death the elves drove the orcs back, and held Morgoth in a virtual siege again.
I think the factions would compose:
Fingolfins house
including his sons and nephews
7 sons of Feanor led by Maedhros
and the Sindar under Thingel
I think Cirdan and the kingless elves of Ossiriand, and some of those in Nevrast (before the founding of Gondolin) were part of his overall kingdom.
The humans shouldn't be a faction because they were made to answer to the Elves. Their arrival should make new units available to the elven factions hosting them.
Ulmo was not supposed to interfere directly in the affairs of the elves. Maybe make his presence known through random events. The creation of heroes, or events like sudden floods stopping the enemy from fording rivers or fog allowing routing troops to escape the enemy.
I think the heroes and main characters could be represented as Kensai like troops with various skills and attributes. The balrog and various dragon types might be represented as single unit troop types.
Yes, the accursed silmarils, but Feanor was the bloody one.
Part of me can't bear the thought of pitting two eldalie factions against eachother, I think what I will try to do is to have region-specific troop types for special elvish units. but only one faction of Elves. The Valar will exist as an independent faction in Valinor, with godly king names, and quenya elvish general names and high elf units. Since Thingol prohibited the use of quenya, most of the names for the single elf-faction will be sindarin, however individual quenya names of import will be included in the list.
Other factions: certainly Angband, Naugrim, Edain, Swarthy Men(easterlings?), There is some space then for two more factions, ether they will die in the first year or be rendered irrelevant or whatever best suggestion is, The men, dwarves, and elves will be considered free peoples, and subjected to the guidance of Valinor, yes crusades will be modded into campaigns for the silmarils. And Morgoth will get to use his jihad-trick, it won't be called a jihad of course.
Sketches,
Human factions weak at the start and east of ered luin.
Eldalie will start with some advanced troops.
Morgoth, will have plentiful and cheap slaves, but also stout and powerful units. Very low maintenance costs on the legions of Orcs, Goblins, Wargs and Trolls, will try to create individual balrog generals, need help on this one.
This will be a mod suited to Viking Invasion.
Religious Conversions
Islam----> Swarthy men and Angband.
Catholic->Elf and Valar,Dwarves and Human
Some of you know better than me, please help, I am happy to be corrected at any time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gif
I will try to make new skins for the walls and buildings, more appropriate to the time and place of this mod.
There is a foretaste available in the downloads section of this website, The ORG has been gracious enough to allow me to post Two new unit files, Orc10, and Goblin10, there are install instructions in the files, The orcs will be used as medium infantry in the mod, the goblins are being reworked now. Orc10 is still in the recently uploaded files but is the better of the two.
I am accepting all recruits to the project, if anyone wants tasks, we have a plenty.
Namarie,
Avarin.
But isn't Fëanor's Oath one of the tragedies of The Silmarillon? When the Noldor made war against other Elves at Alqualondë, Doriath and Mouths of Sirion? Also when they defied Eönwë and the Valar. Hope you include two or more factions of the Eldar so we can see Elves against Elves. I agree with Maedhros' division of the Eldar.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Sons of Feanor, House of Fingolfin, Sindar (Elu Thingol) and maybe the Dark Elves as mercs or Rebel factions.
How about having another faction led by Sauron? Didnt he had a small 'kingdom' when he took Minas Tirith / Tol Sirion , with werewolves as his primary force?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
The elves should be devided as such:
---Noldor (includes Fingolfin, Finrafin, And Finrond's house)
Fingolfin: Hithrim, Mithrim
Fingon: Dol-Lomin
Turgon: Gondolin
Finrond: Nargothrond, along with most of western beleriand
Orodreth: Tol Sirion (Minas Tirith)
Lirdan: Coastal provinces beyond Finrond's realm
Angrond, Aegnor: Dorthonion
---Sons of Fëanor
Celegorm, Curufin: Himland
Meadhros: The Himring
Amrod, Amras: Estolad
Caranthir: Thargelion
Maglor: Maglor's gap
---Sindar Elves
Thingel: Doriath (surrouned by the girdle of Mellan)
---Green elves
Ossiriand
---Naugrim
Dwarves of Nogrod
Dwarves of Belegost
---The Dark Lord
Morgoth: Angband
IIRC that did not happen untill after the siege of Angband was broken late in the first age, i could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-surprised.gif Are you really sure you want that? The sons of Feanor DID actually attack the other elves, you know. And Doriath and Ossiriand really have to be seperate, if only rebel factions. Falar really deserves his own faction, because it will probably represent the only sea-faring faction in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> Valar? Are you gonna use them as the pope? I thought you were talking about Ulmo... Anyway, the Valar really shouldnt be able to interfere in the affairs of Middle Earth, if only as an event.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> Falar, Doriath and Ossiriand should have sindarin names. The Noldor quenyan names.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> Interesting, although I'd like to say that only the noldorian elves should be able to crusade. The dwarves, humans and sindarins did help, sure, but they did not organise one.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> If I were you, I would take different starting times: Before humans, after humans, after the disastrious battle of the sudden fire, and the Second Era.
>> Make the Haldarin rebels, and give the houses of Beorn and Galdor their own factions.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> keeps in the Falar, a Castle as Nargothrond, Menegroth, the Dwarf cities, a Keep as the tower of the Syrion, Himling, the city of Thargelion, a Fortress for Angband, a Citadel for Gondolin, and a Fort for every other significant place.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> Ok... Balrogs would be very cool indeed All units in the army (except balrogs and higher spirits) should have very low morale.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> I suggest to let the religions tell of wich race the inhabitans are:Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Orthodox = elves
Catholic = good humans
Islam = Morgoth stuff (Orcs, evil humans, etc.)
Pagan = bad humans (Easterlings)
>> The elves may revolt when under a human lord, and vice versa. It sounds right to me
>> Are they with Orc&Goblin graphics? You might want to ask the Lordz if they could help you, and maybe even share some graphs with you...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
>> http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gif Good luck I hope you'll get a lot of people to help you, as it's quite an ambitious plan. ;)
-- http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-gossip.gif Ellesthyan
Yes,they are original graphics, I do not need any help there. And excuse me if I upset anyone with the final design of the mod. It is not final currently, and so if you disagree with the direction the mod is taking make your own Silmarillion mod. Remember firstly, that modders spend 100's of hours trying to make a new creation without pay.
To sucessfully duplicate every sociopolitical dynamic in the Silmarillion is impossible. Changes may be made based on ease of modification, and expediency, and have no factual bearing on the Book.
I do have plenty of help from those who are willing to embrace this undertaking with an open mind. Yes, we are trying to duplicate the world in the first age of middle earth. But we are also interested in making a new creation, unit graphics for example, aren't borrowed from LOTR movies, Howe, Weta, or Games Workshop. Lastly, I thank all of your constructive inputs, you can believe the good advice will be heeded, if not put to use in the mod.
Namarie,
Avarin.
avarin, is there a similar topic in the Dungeon - Alchemist lab forum? If not, I think at this time it would be a good idea to move this topic there. There is no need to copy it yourself as I can move this whole topic to that forum.
I'm sorry I may have contradicted myself, I will take a certain amount of advice to heart, but it will be impossible to please everyone all of the time. Once a substantial amount of modding has been done, I'm sure some of you will be able to fine-tune the mod to suit your own tastes.
I may not be the best to answer campaign-game mechanics type of questions, can't tell you who is though, sorry maybe you? If you have some skill in modding and making campaign-map graphics, or campaign-game text files? I can look up the divisions of the elves in the first age too, I have the atlas of middle earth etc, so if Cirdan's (Lirdan's? sic.) elves don't make it in as a separate kingdom you will have to forgive me, even creating one new faction is an arduous task but it can be done, so forgive me for not wanting 30.
Right now my concern is new and unique unit graphics. because each new unit takes me about a week to make, they will be carefully planned to contribute to game balance as well as accuracy.
Yes please Gregoshi.
Thank you
Avarin
Moving this to the Land of Mods, i.e., the Alchemist lab forum. I'll be keeping my eye on this one... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif