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After getting VI I've found a bunch of new javelin units now, not just Kerns. I've never used them before, so I have no idea if they're worth going after and if so, how to use them.
What are they good at killing and what do they need to stay the hell away from? I'd also like thoughts on how many ranks deep they should be used with and such.
Also, what's the deal with their atrocious range? Do most Jav users increase the range via modding?
They're good for nothing if you ask me.
good for killing high value units at close range, they are best at delivering flank and rear attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
they inflict a serious blow to the enemy units morale when used in that way.
i use them five or six ranks deep, that way their ammo lasts longer, they are too vulnerable when strung out and the ammo gets used up in one or two volleys.
try to target high priority enemy units (knights, pikemen, any unit that you think will cause you problems in battle).
you can also station them directly behind your frontline, so that when your spearmen/swordsmen have engaged the enemy the javelinmen can throw their javelins over their heads and into the enemy ranks, it can give you a nice one-two punch during an attack.
javelins can work well if you disable skirmish/fire at will, though you need to micromanage them to get the best results.
use them two or three at a time, all concentrating their attack on the same unit.
never use them unsupported, they are vulnerable to cavalry and archers.
don`t put them in a duel with archers, they outrange you every time.
javelinmen are also light and fast (their speed is also their defence), very good for flank attacks and pursuing units that are routing or trying to withdraw.
atrocious range; try throwing a stick and then try firing an arrow, one does go further than the other.
javelins are heavier than arrows (don`t travel as far), but when a javelin hits it does more damage than a single arrow (and no, i never mod them, if you want greater range get yourself some longbows, they have a very good punch at longrange).
they don`t appeal to everone, see above http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
Well put Katar
I like to use them on bridges, behind a unit or two of spears, when there are high armor troops to kill.
Set them on Hold Position and Hold Formation, and do what Katar says.
Maybe I post screenie
ichi
javs are the best AP ranged attack in early to my knowledge, as said above, use them to chew through anything with armour.
one thing you need to keep them off of skirmish , and micromanage them yourself, but they can be devestating (especially spanish jinettes)
kerns are a good unit don't forget that rain doesn't affect a javalein like a bow. I believe all the javalein units are good for desert terain as they do not use armour. Handy late in the game when you must take on the muslims.
Well if your facing units with lots of armor jav units are a must, good for desert armies aswell as its been pointed out.
Well in my incredibly fun Northumbrian Campaign, I was forced to take down the Irish early as they were kicking everyone else's ass. I attacked with very good generals and well constructed armies, and still took a LOT of casualties. You just can't hit all their jav. units at once, and as soon as you leave one or two free, they stand there and pelt you, and your beautiful Saxon Huscarles with +3 weap and +2 armor die. I only did as well as I did because of morale issues, and they didn't have enough gallowglasses to engage my infantry. Javelins are great supporting units, especially when you're in a pinch for ranged units or even if you're low on cavalry. They can just do so much damage in a short amount of time, properly supported of course, that they're almost a cav. replacement. No need to charge the flanks when you can throw javelins from the flanks, without even taking those occasional cav casualties, or having to cry when you lose an expensive unit. Of course, kerns are not the best jav unit for these tactics; they are the Archers of javelinmen, at least in VI when there's more to choose from. Bonnachts are superb, despite the low ammo count. They can take out the general's unit, no matter how pumped up, with their javs, and then rout some heavy infantry afterwards, all while remaining relatively cheap and having a huge unit size.
I know and they have so many of them Ireland in VI, the graveyard of my armies.
Spanish Javelinmen behind a unit of OFS and some Pikemen, thoroughly ripping up some French.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/stor...javbridge1.jpg
I only used 6 units to hold 16, including some high valor Knights.
ichi
Javelins are great... if you are good at micromanaging you can make cheap armies out of spears/javelins and they rip through most anything. Basically, as said by others, line up the javelins to the rear of the enemy once engaged and let fly. If I pull it off, I've yet to see it not cause the target unit to run. Hit with 4 javelin units at once, and every time I've done it it has caused a rout.
Javelins can be great killers. The only way I ever got the hang of using foot jav's was by playing the Irish in Viking.
Excellent against armor; if you can't out run it, don't attack it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
Hi I just started an Irish Campaign/expert/VI.
I, too, was completely unused to these units.
Having played the Vikings before I feared their
armoured sword & axe units, so I figured I build some Kerns.
Later on you get those other javelins, whoms name I forgot, but who are even better because of a longer range.
So what I did was to build nearly javelin-only armies with occasional Gallowglasses and heavy horsies. Now when I attacked the Scottish, Mercia or whoever they would come to battle with a lot of Spears. Their problem: They cannot throw them.
So I take out huge numbers of their spears while skirmishing in a huge front line with my javelins. Two units or more on one helps to make it even faster.
Once I run out of javelins I charge with the complete battle line and finish whats left. In this situation it helps to charge the cav in the back and the Gallowglasses allover.
Pretty easy, almost boring victories. Yawn
Those Spearmen are so ridiculous. As a Viking you don't even have to bother about tactics. Just charge everybody.
As for the other tactics above, throwing over your own units to attack enemies can harm your own by friendly fire, so be careful.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Ichi, that looks like the most fun bridge battle ever :) Not only are you using a very cool javelin over pike technique, but you're slaughtering the French no less, and in the middle of a blizzard :)
just curious, not exactly a jav question, but if you're the Spanish in the ss, and you're defending, why are you on the bridge?
I always let the other guy get stuck on teh bridge and then hammer him with arrow fire from the flanks.
A note about range, throwing down a hill greatly increases there range and a steep hill you would swear they are archers shooting up a hill. When on a steep hill they can easily throw over three units and possibly more so you can sometimes have them target a general thats far in the rear. As far as usefullness, all I can really say if your not the Byzantines in early theres only 1 unit I can think of that will quickly decimate Varangin Guard and Kataphraktoi regardless of valour. OK and another use ever seen cavaly archers rout in about 2 seconds.
I learned to respect javelins after being thoroughly whipped as the HRE again and again by the Hungarians in early. They had loads of Slav Jav's and their mobility makes them a right pain, especially when cav is scarce. I have not mastered their use myself, but I certainly respect them.
yeah, when I took Ireland the Kerns never game me much grief, but after the VI xpac the Spanish use a ton of javelinmen. They're a pain in the ass because they seem tougher than they should be. They do not fall to archer fire as easily as, say, Urban Militia, even though their info sheet has the same Vulnerable to Missile Fire entry. They also are not killed by cavalry charges as easily as unarmored infantry should be. They stick harder, like they're armored or something. To boot, I've more than thrice seen them recieve a charge in the flank or rear, turn, and start fighting with my cavarly, AND WIN Granted I was using Mounted Sergeants but even then, MS have an irresitable charge so that shouldn't be happening.
Spanish Javelin perform more like Feudal Sergeants than light infantry skirmishers, at least whenever I've faced them in Aquitaine.
well, there is a chance, spanish javelinmen from spain have weapons upgrades. and with some + armor they actually turn ARMORED :) add a decent general to that and they can actually get the better of your mounted sergeants :)Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
squippy just train a load of Slav Warriors to deal with them. Or Slav Javelinmen... That should even it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
How I love those Slavs... The Warriors are like superpeasants, cheap and a lot of them, and they are fast too with a big shield. I have had so many battles where I have had a few units and about 5-6 Slav Warriors units. I really like them.
Javelins are great fun. It is like you feel better about yourself when you have managed to empty all 4 units of javelins. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-toff.gif
There is few better sights than when you decimate a unit of Royal Knights killing a prince or king with a lowly unit costing 125 florins. It doesn't get any better than that.
[quote=Kraxis,Jan. 28 2004,19:06]Yep, thats what I did, HAD to do. In early, Slav warriors are amongst the most effective units, and fast enough to be mobile. Again, they absorb lots of casualties but are aggressive enough for the purpose. I had so many, they supplanted peasants as permanent garrisons and were even fighting the French on the opposite border.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Ohhh... never use Peasants. Slav Warriors are as cheap in upkeep and they fight much much better. They actually become something of a powerful force when at V3 and upwards. Peasants are always crap.
I'm glad another person likes the Slav Warriors as much as me. They are the bread and butter troops of the Early HRE. I wonder why the Hungarians didn't train Jobbagy, they are better than Slav Javelinmen and easier to get to.
I guess, 'those other javelins' are dartmen. They do have a longer ranger than kerns. However, their darts are not armor piercing... At least, when I last looked at the projectile stats file. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/handball.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b