Are there times when it might make sense

I have noticed that on some maps, especially when I spawn in the left rear position, that at the end of the battle I have barely, if at all, used my pavs. I usually bring 3 or 4 pavs in high and late era.

In a 4v4 on flat or hilly maps we sometimes make a strategy, to push left or right, and I have noticed that there are games where I take my cav and infantry and go to support an ally or aid in an attempt to double someone, and when I get there the fighting is either starting or in full swing.

My slow pavs are always last to arrive, frequently after one side has routed. Of course then we are on to the next fight or routing off the map.

So I am wondering. What about something like a rush army? Of course with 10K if you try to get 16 cav and inf your florins get spread too thin.

But. . .

instead of getting 16 units just get 13. Drop the pavs. I figure in Late that 4 pavs cost 1200 florins, which is 12% of a 10K budget. that will buy a couple Templars, or a V3 CMAA.

Now I am not speaking about Steppes or other situations where you would use pavs. This isn't about getting a rush army.

My question is - - What about going with 13 units with no pavs?

ichi

I cant go to battle without 16 units I feel naked with less than 16 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

well, every unit within a certain distance of another unit will provide a morale support bonus. Even if your pavs are too far away from the enemy to actually shoot, they may be close enough to your line to provide morale support.

Of course, you dont need pavs specifically-- any unit will provide the same morale support bonus-- v0 peasants are just as good for this purpose as v4 lancers. So...chances are you can find a unit that will be able to stand behind your main line and provide morale support--something that is fast and inexpensive. That way when you arrive at the fight you will have morale support for your main line.

You can always buy some non-pav xbow/arbs. I normally buy about 50/50 depending on army. I will then have some fire support that can follow the rest of my inf.

But yes some battles turn into a rush/melee battle very quickly and you could either drop the missile or just drop the pavs completely.


CBR

You could definitely do this, but would need to make sure that your side took the initiative, and didn't wait too long to attack. If you see someone on the other side without missles you usually try to shoot them up as much as possible...not only with foot archers, but anyone with cav archers will usually bring them over as well. So if you didn't bring missles then you couldn't get into a prolonged battle.

It's about options...

Having 13 units and no pav may make you slightly more efficient in melee (and that's arguable, see Dyon argument + even in melee a 2pt morale penalty is still good), but you lose the option of engaging in pav war.
So,if your opponents are close together and it will be difficult to build up pressure on them, you might end up at a disadvantage. You can't really draw them out of position by winning the missile war. Actually, as Aelwyn puts it, you are likely to be the one drawn out of position under missile fire.

I doubt it would be good. But I am curious if anyone tries it... And how does that play out?

Louis,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]So...chances are you can find a unit that will be able to stand behind your main line and provide morale support--

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Nice thought: war psychologists or battle priest, maybe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif

But I don't want to ridicule Dion's comment. As this game is mainly about morale, I am sure the point is more than valid.

But am I right in thnking that foot archer are the only real counter to horse archers ? And thus, leaving the pavs behind (as much as I would like that) means you risk getting shot to pieces ?

I myself, in any case, get shot to pieces quite often, because I dont have enough or not good enough archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-clown.gif

i saw take 4 archers instead of pavs (900) and spend the extra 300 on something for cav or inf (this is if u take 4 pavs) i always find my pavs are left behind in team games if i beat my guy then they just stand there well a massive cav inf battle starts

Although at some map, I'll reduce the proportion of pav, I never go drastically to 0 (unless the factions like Turk and Mongol gave me none). If I think I will rush the opponent, I still bring 1 or 2 pav. The reason is to keep the options open.

And the pav do play defensive role: If they move last, they still provide flank protection. I would love that my opponent spend 1 cav take out my left-behind pavs: it slows down his cav to flank my fighting infantry.

Also, it is rare that all 4 armies will participate in a rush. Usually lending a couple of pav to your ally would make him resist perhaps a 2-on-1 while you try to pull a 3-on-2 on the other side.

Annie

Hi Ichi, I dont like your idea for 13 units because you said you usually rush into a battle thats already taking place. If you dont have missiles and you have no battle to rush into(even if its only for a short while) your going to be getting shot or hanging back behind the team line leaving allies open to attack. Missile are good not only for shooting but for also for soaking up enemy fire. Take 3 crossbows, their only 600 florins anyways.

well, i don't want to give away trade secrets, but for certain situations i have left the missiles behind to spend more on infantry - especially useful in viking games where the missiles as a general rule play less part. I would class this as a 'rush army' however - but if you're using this effectively with 3 or 4 less units than your opponents, what's the problem?

The terrain plays a big part in the decision in how many to bring.(I really always bring at least 1) On the steppes you will place your allies in a weak position if you lose the pav war. I feel you must take at least three to not be a liability there.
Even in the desert I take one just to stand out front. They are kind of a portable defensive wall in a since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Mar. 24 2004,19:57)]Also, it is rare that all 4 armies will participate in a rush.

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It might be rare in 4v4, but I've seen it done and it's hard to counter if the defenders have each taken the typical 3 or 4 pav xbows expecting a preliminary shootout phase to the battle.