XVI -XVII mod

Now when 30-years war mod seems to be dead, I decided to start the tread.
As soon as I joined the forum I came out with the idea and some members answered that it seems quite popular idea.
Since the time I haven't seen anything about it.

So let's start.

1. The IDEA

Mod time frame -

Starting 1492 - why ? several events happened at that time - America was descovered, Bohemia and Hungary united ( for a short period), Grenada was finally taken, Russia just emerged and so on.

Ending year - 1700 - several wars just ended, some quite decisive.

The map - modified campaign map - several modifications in eastern Europe necessary I'll explain later.


Factions

- Catholic - Spain, Portugal, France, Venetia, Hungary, Poland, Habsburg HRE + possibly more;

- Protestant - England, Denmark, Sweden, Brandenburg, Saxony, Scotland + more to be added;

- Muslim - Ottoman Empire, maybe Egypt or something else;

- Orthodox - Russia, maybe more;


New weapons

-projectiles - albalester, compound bow, arquebus, musket ( 3 types ?),

pistol.


New units

- regional, mercenary only, buildable mercenaries ( WesW idea)

and much more.

2. MAKING THIS POSSIBLE

First. I'm not going to make this mod ( mostly due to lack of spare time, and restricted access to the web) although I would gladly help anyone especially when it comes to Poland, tech tree, and several things more.

So is anyone interested ?

If not I'm going to finish the mod myself, but it's not going to be in the close future.

regards Cegorach/Hetman~:cheers:

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
This has been a very popular idea for along time now. I've read several threads starting like this one. However commitment is always the stumbling block. Maybe just takling the first hundred or so years would make it all a bit more achievable. You could easily extend the mod after. This mod would involve new animations and alot of work. Think you'll need some bigger tastier bate (i.e some beginings of a mod) to get many takers. But this thing is way overdue, so good luck. Maybe i'll find some free time to help.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

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I have been planning to work on a "Post" era campaign too; starting from 1481 (death of Mehmed II) and ending in 1648 (Treaty of Westfallen). A brand new map with fewer sea regions but detailed and extended (to have Iran in) lands; brand new units, Protestant factions etc.

Glad to have similar minds around. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-2thumbsup.gif
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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif So Hetman,
Have you had any more thoughts on your proposal. New Units, buildings etc.
Although your proposed starting date makes sence, I personally would like to see a continuation from 1450's. I'm with Mouzafphaerre on the end date of 1648, but mainly because Flintlock Musketry starts to dominate and Pike use begins fading out around then. Perhaps 1649 would be more appropriate for my English sentiment (Charles I beheaded, begining of the Cromwells Rump Parliament)My interest fades a little after this period.
I've got lots of ideas for units mostly from Cossacks at the moment and can get lots of Jpegs for Unit Icons. My modding skills are basic, but I can do some re-scripting and re-naming and I know my way around most 2D design packages. No animation skills however. (yet)
And you'll need animators, those Landsknecht will need to be colourfull, when the "Verlorener Haufe" catch up with them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Nomad

Recently I was working on my numer 1 mod ( a fantasy one), although I was only renaming/copying and pasting/inventing new units ( 238 in total)and projectiles ( spells for mages/wizards/shamans) and trying to balance the stats it took about 3 weeks when I decided it is ready to test. I'm really proud of this - I've solved so many problems e.g.
slow but tireless Dwarfs, Undead which don't flee, magic spells - but it was a nightmare and now it's still just playable in custom battles mode. For this reason I'm not going to do everything alone.

I'm aware this is not going to be easy, especially because I really don't now much about animation - I was only able to mod shields for my XVIth century Hussars ( Feudal Knights in fact) and to create a hypnotic shields for one of units in the fantasy mod.

What I'm really able to do now is mostly modding varius text files ( I mean almost all which can be edited using Notepad)+ info pics and some more.

Of course I've several ideas for units, although I'll need more information especially concerning Western Europe - Spain, England, Italy etc. Also everything which can be used in info_pics ( I'd like to use as many historical paintings as possible) is of much value.

I think that for now I'm able to make it playable without any animation changes, campaign map modyfications and probably another religion ( protestant). It is much easier to wait for other modders when it comes to map changes - especially the LORDS or WesW. I like the idea of adding 7-8 more provinces using remaining colours in the palette.

I know I'll need much more info, more skills and some help of course.
The timeframe - ending the mod in 1648 isn't a bad idea, although
as You know this year is 'a breaking point' for several countries -
Russia, Turkey, Poland, Hungary and Brandenburg for example.

Here You have an interesting webside about Polish military - it was much different than in western Europe no caracole for example.

links http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/index.htm
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywood/Contents.htm

Regards Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

Such mod would be probably comparable in its complexity to something like NTW, which makes it a very challenging endeavor.

Though using altered campmap (like the one Wes is making) is a certainly a good idea, the first release could use the original MTW map I believe.
A very basic mod could be first constructed using the original unit graphics, and only set in the period you here discuss, with appropriate (in that respect that representing appropriate, but not accurate in their appearance) units, buildings, tech trees, factions.

BTW, nice to see some other modder from Poland, Hetman. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Regards,
EC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 07 2004,04:24)]A very basic mod could be first constructed using the original unit graphics, and only set in the period you here discuss, with appropriate (in that respect that representing appropriate, but not accurate in their appearance) units, buildings, tech trees, factions.

BTW, nice to see some other modder from Poland, Hetman. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Regards,
EC

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EC

I've tried this already, but because I need some help I decided to post the topic.

I'm going to use NTW battlefield maps, especially when it comes to castles ( for the biggest of them)

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

Great Idea Hetman.

It is an interesting period indeed. I think the end date should be 1700, (Charles II of Spain dies, and europe goes to war for 15 years, apart other campaigns all over the map)

I can get a lot of info about Spain, so if you need it give me a shout.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif
THe pikes fade out as times goes by, but that is correct, after all you use much less x-bows whe you have arbs.

The problem I see, is how are you going to manage the incomes the nations received from the colonies? I think you should do something like, if you have a chain of ships from the western border of the map to your port, you get xxx cash.

Anyway, keep it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

You could also separate the mod into 3 periods:

1: 1492-1600
2: 1600-1648
3: 1648-1700

Or something similar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 07 2004,05:33)]1.I can get a lot of info about Spain, so if you need it give me a shout.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif

2.The problem I see, is how are you going to manage the incomes the nations received from the colonies? I think you should do something like, if you have a chain of ships from the western border of the map to your port, you get xxx cash.
Anyway, keep it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

3.You could also separate the mod into 3 periods:

1: 1492-1600
2: 1600-1648
3: 1648-1700

Or something similar.

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1. Yes I need more info.

2. And no. It is impossible, but I'm going to add some structures like NTW East India Company but linked to certain provinces by colony 'trade good' and generating certain amount of cash exactly as Cathedral for example.

3. I thought about it and it really seems to be a very good idea.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Everybody

my E-mail Cegorach@wp.pl

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]1. Yes I need more info

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What do you need to know?

Kings, gens? soldiers and weapons? princesses? land controlled? richest provs?

tell me what you need and i'll email you with what you need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 07 2004,05:52)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]1. Yes I need more info

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What do you need to know?

Kings, gens? soldiers and weapons? princesses? land controlled? richest provs?

tell me what you need and i'll email you with what you need.

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Unit ideas mostly. The rest if You like.

+ pictures for Info_pics if You have any.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

I'll work on that over the weekend. I'll try to find pics as well, but thats gonna be harder. I dont think they took many photographs in the XVI cent............ Ok bad joke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
Hi Hetman,
I've emailed you some basic ideas for 16th and 17th century units taken from DBR army lists. There's a lot more info to be found there, which I'll be only to glad to do a little more research for.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Ok, this is the most complete guide to the spanish army between 1460s and 1704 that I know about. There are some pics as well.

this page

hope it is useful. I will send you some more detailed pics of armours and swords later.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-lost.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 08 2004,18:20)]Ok, this is the most complete guide to the spanish army between 1460s and 1704 that I know about. There are some pics as well.

this page

hope it is useful. I will send you some more detailed pics of armours and swords later.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-lost.gif

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Are You sure about this link.
It seems that this doesn't work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-lost.gif

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

hmmm.. I just checked and it does work, but heres the URL anyway:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

hope you can get there. If not, tellme and I will put it into a word document.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif The link worked for me too
A good read.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 09 2004,06:54)]hmmm.. I just checked and it does work, but heres the URL anyway:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

hope you can get there. If not, tellme and I will put it into a word document.

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I tried, but again I was not able. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-wall.gif

I don't know what was wrong.

It seems I'll need Your help.

Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-help.gif

I've finally decided to use Eastside Character's idea - modding without changes in textures. At least we are lucky to have pikemen in the MTW.

So I'm going to make the techtree ( or rather techtrees
- HINT Master Horse Breeder only for Poland, Ottomans, Hungary, Crimean Tartars), startpositions, units, descriptions, names and so on.

If You have some proposals/ideas post them here or use e-mails or PM.

Now some ideas.


A.The timeframe

1. Age of Exploration 1492 - 1580

2. 1580 - 1648 ( no name yet),

3. 1648 - 1700 ( no name yet),


B.Expanding religion


First I'm going to implement Protestant religion.

Second - Trydentium, in the second era certain factions will be able to

'produce' Jesuits or other units to convert population's beliefs.

I'm going to implement religius tolerance, absolutism and democracy - for certain countries.
This means several buildings like The Parliament for example.

What does it mean moreover ?

Tolerant countries for example will not be able to produce priests of any kind, but will get access to several buildings which increase local happiness and not only.

Here is the first ( incomplete) list of:

1. tolerant countries

Poland, Hungary, Transylvania ( 1580+ period) + who knows.

2. democratic countries

Venetia, England ( but probably in a slightly different way), Poland, Hungary, United Provinces ( Holland).



C.Homelands

Of course I'm going to use this really great idea from WesW's mod.

Here is first list of homeland provinces for:

POLAND

Prussia, Pomerania, Poland, Volhynia, Kiev, Lithuania, Livonia, Smolensk, Carpathia + some units from Silesia, Bohemia, Hungary, Moldavia, Vallachia, Crimea and in the east.

HUNGARY

Hungary, Carpathia, Vallachia, Croatia, Bohemia + Moldavia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Austria, Silesia, Poland, Volhunia.

SWEDEN

Sweden, Finland, Norway, Livonia + Prussia, Novgorod, Denmark, Saxony, Pomerania,

and ( restricted) in German countries.

DENMARK

Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Saxony, Pomerania, Livonia + Novgorod, Prussia and German countries.


D.FIRST UNIT

Here is a short description of my beloved unit - one of the most important reasons I've decided to make this mod.

Polish Winged Lancers/Polish Hussars or simply Husaria

speed- fast, but only slightly more than an average heavier cavalry;
more resilent horses,
causes fear in pikemen units,
charge - irresistible 10 probably - 5 meter long lance;
attack - 4 or 5;
defence - 3;
morale - 6;
armour - heavy but not very;
1 supporting rank to allow fighting ( and charging) in two ranks;
+2 to attack cavalry ( wings and a lance);
bonus vs. armoured troops;
disciplined;
production time 2 years;
unit size 40;
available only to Poland from 1580 ( second period);
buildable in Poland, Volhynia, Kiev, Lithuania, Smolensk and Livonia.






IMPORTANT

If You have some unit proposals please describe units in some way.

I need basic ideas - e.g. fast cavalry, broadsword, pistols, for Sweden, high attack, irresistible charge, excellent morale, may charge without orders, low requirements + maybe more ( Jpeg, description, and so no).

Regards Cegorach/Hetman~:thumb:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]2. 1580 - 1648 ( no name yet),

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suggestion: religious wars

BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)

I suggest you make them slow (5 m lance on horseback is not exactly wieldy), and not armour piercing, but give them 'elite' status. I think that would be more accurate.

BTW, the +2 bonus should only apply to cavalry that isnt armed with lances themselves, such as lancers.(because the reach is quite similar).

Fast cav: german reitar: armed with pistols and sword.

very Fast,
strong charge, (5)
VERY good attack (6),
good defence,(4)
bonus vs armoured cavs during the first 2-3 secs because of the pistols, then the defence should drop 2-3 points.(1?)
no armor.(0)
unit size : 46
disciplined.
morale (2)

Available to HRE, Spain, Nehterlands, France (only 3rd periond), and to the rest of the world as mercs)

I'll put that page into a word doc. BTW, did you receive my email?

The second Era could also be called "The Great War" as it includes the 30-year war, which was known as the Great war during the 17th century. WW1 kind of stole that name http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

Some unit ideas:
for the swedish faction
Smålands cavalry: light, fast but not too powerful (small swedish horses) only available in sweden.
Hakkapeliitta cavalry: Light, fast, illdisciplined, impetous, excellent morale, irresistible charge. Can only be trained in Finland.
Finnish Conscripts/Hakkapeliitta infantry: Infantry recruited from Finland, known as hakkapeliittas as well because of the war cry that all Finns used (Hakkaa päälle).
Swedish artillery should also be slightly better to contempories, may be a slightly faster firing rate or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]New tactics in warfare proved the increasing significance of artillery. The numbers of trained artillerists increased in order to achieve more effect on the battlefield. At the same time, artillerists became a permanent part of the military organisation. During the country's era as a Great Power (1611-1718), Sweden became a leader in the development of artillery during that period. The first artillery general was Swedish - Lennart Torstensson.

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http://www.mil.se/historia/english/17th.html

Just some ideas. I would really like to see a pike & musket mod realized. A time period completely ignored so far.

Real good time frames. However, I got a question. I guess my part is to pile up an Ottoman ruler-unit-hero-province info thingy again; this time for post-1492.

We can do it neatly with Mouzapheare. Now what are we doing?

just a small remark: why not a period 1568-1648 (80 years war)?
It may only be important for the Low Countries, though.
That way you've got slightly more evenly spaced time periods (about 75/80/50 years instead of 100/50/50)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)

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Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (cutepuppy @ May 10 2004,06:34)]just a small remark: why not a period 1568-1648 (80 years war)?
It may only be important for the Low Countries, though.
That way you've got slightly more evenly spaced time periods (about 75/80/50 years instead of 100/50/50)

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I think the breakpoint should be the death of emperor Charles I of Spain (Charles V of HRE) because the HRE separated from Spain and they became independent of each other. I think its a major breakpoint.

BTW, cant the length of the turns be changed? coz it would be better to have 6months turns instead of annual ones.That would show that the development was faster than in the middle ages...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Quote
BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)

Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.

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I didnt negate that, but they still should have a counterpart. If you give Poland invincible cavalry, give every nation an invincible unit... Then the problem would be what if all the invincible units face each other? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

My suggestions were purely due to balance purposes and logic considerations.(How fast could an armoured guy with a 5 m lance move? and not only move, but maniobrate in formation?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-juggle.gif

Anyways, what I thought about is that musquets/harquebus in formation should cause fear to all cavalry except german cuirassers (those guys had bulletproof armour which harquebuses couldnt trespass) if they charge from the front. I dont know if that is doable tho.

BTW, the swedish cuirassers should also be really powerful.
And their grenadiers aswell.

@Cebei: have a look at the link above somewhere, and click on "Foreign Forces" or something similar. There is a good bit about Ottomans.

gee, this was a long post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-smile.gif


BTW, have you thought of some cool short name? like hmmm... MTW (musket Total War) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif

The power of Poland can be balanced by other means, the low loyalty of her generals, the high rebelliousness of some of the provinces etc. these were the reasons why Poland didn´t conquer the world in real life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]speed- fast, but only slightly more than an average heavier cavalry;
more resilent horses,
causes fear in pikemen units,
charge - irresistible 10 probably - 5 meter long lance;
attack - 4 or 5;
defence - 3;
morale - 6;
armour - heavy but not very;
1 supporting rank to allow fighting ( and charging) in two ranks;
+2 to attack cavalry ( wings and a lance);
bonus vs. armoured troops;
disciplined;
production time 2 years;
unit size 40;
available only to Poland from 1580 ( second period);
buildable in Poland, Volhynia, Kiev, Lithuania, Smolensk and Livonia.

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Irresistable charge - must be in http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif
causes fear in pikemen - well they were pretty much only cavalry able to defeat pikes with a frontal charge.
attack - for the sake of balance it may be 4
+2 attack against cavalry - unnecessary IMHO, their irresistable charge should give them natural edge against other cavalry.
bonus vs armored troops - they aren´t armed with an axe, are they? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
Buildable in Livonia - I doubt it very much, the local nobles - the Germans had a very different way of fighting.

Topic moved to the Engineers Guild as it has turned into mod development.

Duke John

@ trax I do support the unit in general, and i think they will add some visual to the game ,you dont see guys with wings everyday... And I still think they should be slower.
Irrest charge sounds good, and fear in spearmen as well agree with the Livonia thing, and the rest is pretty much what I said so I obviously agree with that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Another Unit for poland I thought about is the Pani:

Heavy cav armed with curved swords. Elite, undisciplined, fast, and colourful. REally good morale.

Something like that...


And for France I think you should include the Royal Musketeer as the late `best´musketeer unit... I have to think about the stats tho..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ May 10 2004,13:26)]We can do it neatly with Mouzapheare. Now what are we doing?

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Why, I'm in of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

But let's please start it a bit earlier than 1492. I say 1481. Why? Simple: With little anachronisme, we can include Gem Sultan's revolt (rebels to the east) and give Ottomans a pain to deal with. Otherwise, they will be overpowered.

We can also include the Qurtuba Saltanat in Iberia (Cordoba), which will have been wiped off in 1492...

Thinking again, 1492 will do it too but it aint a coronation date... Anyway, tell me what you think.

I know a couple people who will be -potentilly at least- interested in this project too. Already, I've got a literature historian/historical litarary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-confused.gif to work on names etc.
_