Muslim Melee #1

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06-29-2004, 19:29
Doug-Thompson

Those of us who play Muslims post a lot about flanking, but say precious little about what's doing the pinning while all this flanking is going on.

This gives the impression that fighting with Muslim units is more difficult but no more effective than teching-up and bashing into things with Catholic armored units.

Rather than make up some rules for fighting as Muslims, here's a observation on Muslim archer units. Tell people the differences, and let them design their own tactics.

Hopefully, this will be the first of several such tips from a variety of experienced players on using Muslims

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Look at the melee stats for Catholic infantry, and then for archers. You will find a large divide, a clear division of labor. Catholic swords and spearmen are clearly meant to do the fighting. Archers are clearly restricted to a supporting role. There are exceptions -- handgunners are arguably better melee troops than missile ones -- but that's the rule of thumb.

You won't find the same clear division in Muslim armies. Turkish Futtawa, for instance, are better melee units than Arab Infantry. Almohad Murabitan javelin troops can at least hold their own for a while against vanilla urban militia, and have much better morale. They can whip peasants, Slav Warriors and similar low-value units. Even the lowly Desert Archer has much better melee stats than vanilla archers, and better morale.

So, you should stop firing arrows and charge? No, but your greater melee option does mean that when a melee opportunity unexpectedly opens up in front of you, perhaps you should take it. Suppose a friendly melee unit is routed and the pursuing unit is strung out in the chase. Your Futawwas should charge. A dangerous opening in your line could become a rout for the other side.

Muslims can also be a more daring with their archer units. They don't have to worry so much about an isolated archer unit getting killed by hobilars, for instance. Catholic archers have to stay behind line infantry or be escorted by cavalry. Muslim units don't, or are at least less dependent on protection. They can skirmish farther out in front of the battle line and then pull back to the sides when the melee units become engaged, which takes away their enemy's shield bonus.
06-29-2004, 23:39
Sarnaen

Thats a bonus for the Muslims. Their units are much less dependant on each other. That doesn't say they're effective independantly, they still need to work as a team, moreso than Catholics, but they can hold their own should they be faced with an unusual situation.
Whereas Catholic archers who have used all their ammo are useless and should be withdrawn from battle, Muslim archer units can still be effective as flankers and flank guards. They are much better than Catholics for this because of their higher melee stats, and many Muslim archers are fast. Sweeping around the sides of a major confrontation with archers, surrounding and destroying the enemys morale.
I use spare archer units in a kind of fast cavalry role. They can catch and beat their counterparts on the battle, and their speed will make it easier to take prisoners. They can also chase heavier infantry that run from the battle. Saharan cavalry is better for this role, but the amount you need to spend on them decreases as your archers fill out your list, performing a more general role.
06-30-2004, 04:30
eds

You don't need to pin. The key to remember is this.. the futuwwas, nizaris, the janissary infantry and even the jan archers and turcomans can beat almost any other unit 1 on 1, if they're able to offload their supply of arrows first, then rush in and clean up what's left. JHI provide a premiere anti-cavalry unit that can outrun any infantry heavy enough to beat it. Think on the implications of that for a moment.

Divide them, piss on them with arrows, avoid close combat, then engage them hand to hand and you have an easy win, with few casualties. I tend to lose very few men when playing Turkish campaigns, except when I'm fighting other Muslims (predictably) as they tend to be heavy on hybrids too. While you could out-skirmish another skirmish-heavy faction, it's just giving them an unecessary chance - like trying to out-horde the horde. From an efficiency point of view, why risk it? Put polearms in the woods of Khazar, leave the computer on and come back in two hours.
06-30-2004, 11:46
Leodegar

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (eds @ June 30 2004,05:30)]You don't need to pin. The key to remember is this.. the futuwwas, nizaris, the janissary infantry and even the jan archers and turcomans can beat almost any other unit 1 on 1, if they're able to offload their supply of arrows first, then rush in and clean up what's left.

well i can't agree with that. my muslim hybrid archers don't seem to be too useful in head on melee combat. none of them can hold itself against cav without help. and using them head on doesn't work for me. i even lost with futtuwas charging normal spearman or ottoman infantry (armour piercing) against armour upgraded chivalric sergeants. So what am i doing wrong? perhaps it is the moral bonus, the ai gets on expert?

but i must admit they work very well as flankers. peppering the enemy, drawing aside when their main forces advance, waiting until they engage my melee troops, and than hitting them in the rear is very effective.
06-30-2004, 12:21
Sarnaen

Charging spear units head on is a bad idea with anything, sword armed or not. Swordsmen might be good at killing spears, but they will take heavy casualties when charging them face first. Using a hybrid to first charge the flank, or draw them around to expose a flank and disrupt their ordered formation, followed by a flank charge by another hybrid or HA is the best way.
06-30-2004, 13:37
eds

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Leodegar @ June 30 2004,03:46)]well i can't agree with that. my muslim hybrid archers don't seem to be too useful in head on melee combat. none of them can hold itself against cav without help. and using them head on doesn't work for me. i even lost with futtuwas charging normal spearman or ottoman infantry (armour piercing) against armour upgraded chivalric sergeants. So what am i doing wrong? perhaps it is the moral bonus, the ai gets on expert?

but i must admit they work very well as flankers. peppering the enemy, drawing aside when their main forces advance, waiting until they engage my melee troops, and than hitting them in the rear is very effective.

Whittle the spears down with arrow fire and your hybrids will easily win the day.

Cavalry isn't going to let you sit there and shoot them of course, but that's where your own anti-cav assets come into play. It requires a good deal of micromanagement and anticipation, but this is where the Turkish style comes into play.

I'll see if I can dig up a few multiplayer replays I should have saved showing how it can work, but it basically involves a lot of baiting/feints/running... basically your hybrids skirmishing (for extended periods of time) until enemy units are sufficiently depleted (or you run out of arrows... this will never be the case unless you're fighting, oh I don't know, an army made up entirely of Gothic troops).

In high and late, JHI make it possible for you to build an army with nothing but Jan Infantry (and a few JHI) and destroy just about anything. Having some cav of your own is always good and the Muslims have no trouble in the light/medium cavalry department.