On Pila and the Legion

I have not yet played the demo myself, but I have noticed some discussion/debate in these forums as to how pila are implemented in the game. As it is, they are counted as javelins which may or may not be discharged at a range before charging in with swords.

This depiction is consistent with the majority of popular historical recreations, but I do not feel it is entirely accurate with the way pila were actually used. Based on various sources and my own feeling, it seems to me that the pilum, while it could also be lobbed from a distance, was probably more useful once closer to the enemy, and could even have been used to supplement melee.

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Spears are, we are told, defensive weapons. But if you study the Illiad or other depictions of ancient combat, the impression one gets is quite to the contrary. Classically, the spear is the ultimate OFFensive weapon, with a range and penetrating ability simply unmatchable by the sword.

The impression I have formed is that, in man-to-man combat, the most effective way to use a spear was to hold it in the over-hand fashion, guarding yourself with your shield, and try to hit your enemy before he could hit you. You would either cast it a short distance or deliver a series of long-range strikes, and then close to attack with the sword if you either missed or broke your spear-head.

The downside of this method of fighting is that it was incompatible with an ordered formation. The development of heavier shields and the greater availability of bronze armor led to the dominance of the heavily-armoured hoplites with their shield walls and thrusting-spears. The Macedonians gave their hoplites smaller shields and longer spears and invented the classic Phalanx.

The Phalanx represents the ultimate incarnation of spears as a DEFensive weapon, the formation pushing forward only because the front is impenetrable.

Then came the Romans. They started out using Spartan-style hoplites, but then they had an idea-- whatever happened to the OFFensive spear? What if it could be modified in such a way that it could be used in a well-ordered formation? Thus-- the Legion.

The Legion, in contrast to the impenetrable frontof the Phalanx, focuses on agressively striking the enemy formation. Pila, short enough to be used without putting out anyone's eye behind you, and bending on impact to prevent their use by the enemy, are the first implement of smiting, and if they don't work the legionaries close ALL AT ONCE to stab, stab, stab.

Legionaries are not skirmishers. It seems much more likely to me that a soldier would use his pilum at close range, where he will be much more likely to hit and kill. It also seems likely, indeed I've heard accounts, that the ranks behind him might cast more pila even after he had entered in close combat with the enemy line-- thus providing a modified form of the rear-rank support so touted in more conventional spear formations.

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So it seems to me that while the Legionaries should have the option of casting javelin-style in special circumstances, the Pilum makes much more sense factored in somehow to the melee.

DA

The ROman units with this possibility (at the moment Hastati and Princeps have Pilum to throw. You have your mouse cursor, when hovered over an enemy it will change to a Pilum looking icon and then you right click to attack. The soldiers will run up, pause, throw a Pilum (takes a little long IMO) and then continue to charge into the enemy after they throw their single Pilum. I've had a couple good times when at the end of a battle where there are enemy troops staggering around the battle field you toss one volley of pilum into that unit and they usually rout.

In my reading, I have always run across evidence that argues that the pila were not meant as killing weapons at all. They were meant to be blocked by shields where the narrow head of the weapon would puncture the shied, but the thin neck would bend at the join of pila and shield, and render the pila incapable of being quickly removed. The enemy soldier would have no time to remove the pila before the Legionarries moved in for hand to hand combat, and would have to fight without his shield. The Legionarries did this because their primary weapon was a short sword (the gladius) used in a chopping motion. If it was caught on the edge of a shield it had a tendency to get stuck, much like an axe will get stuck when splitting wood.

Then Pila then served the dual purpose of relieving a number of enemies of a tool they are used to fighting with, and also lessoning the chance of a Legionaire losing his sword in someone's shield. Granted, I'm sure they wouldn't have complained if the pila did kill the occasional target in the process. ~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McGowan

their primary weapon was a short sword (the gladius) used in a chopping motion.

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no, it was used in a stabbing motion primarily

but the rest of the psot was good

As best I can tell, the pila was not designed for hand-to-hand use. It would most likely break/fold after hitting a shield a few times. Remember, the tip was designed to fold on impact. This kept the weapon from being thrown back at you, plus it could stick in a shield and fold over making the shield difficult to use (the pila had a head shaped to make it difficult to extract.)

I saw an image a few days ago of pila being used in an anti-cavalry formation. With the front rank kneeling in tight formation with shields in front, pila pointed up from the dirt at a 45 degree angle. The second rank had their shields resting at a 45 degree angle on top of the 1st rank shields and held their pila overhanded, ready to throw if the cav came in close. Purely defensive and immobile and it only works if you haven't thrown your pila.

I believe the pila was discarded once they entered hand to hand (since it would just be in the way.) Rear ranks could use it though.

The advantage of the gladius over the falcata was that it was a stabbing sword (although it could be used in chopping motion as well.) This made it better suited for close quarters formation fighting with shields, where there was less room to swing a sword.

In the demo the Romans seem to get two pila each, although you can rarely get the formation to throw the second one. Hit percentage is about 10+% vs. other stationary heavy infantry in standard formations.

Great posts Arroyo & everyone, it does make one think.

The idea of the spear as a hand-to-hand weapon is well fostered by descriptions of battle in the Illiad. In the combat between Menelaus and Paris, and the climactic battle between Achilles and Hector, spears are first choice for a death-blow, followed by a reluctant pulling out of swords. In the chaos of the battles on the plain, it's spears that are doing the damage and getting Homer's graphic descriptions, not swords.

There are some who say that the focus on spears in Greek times came from the fact that swords, though useful in very close combat, were made of bronze. They could only hold a semi-sharp edge, dented easily, and shattered often in fierce combat. Spears, on the other hand, were mostly made of wood --- tough stuff to be sure, and far less to break when you most needed it. Also trees were plentiful, while metal was scarce.

By Roman times, though, swords were being made of iron rather than bronze, so they shattered far less often, could hold a better edge, and were sometimes longer (though they were still quite short, slightly over half a metre at most).

The Legionnaires would never use their pilum in melee as it was indeed, as previously mentioned, intended to bend on impact - and bend very easily, so as to make the enemy discard their shields, making them completely vulnerable to the upwards thrust of the Roman gladius. It would've been almost impossible to use such a fragile and incorrectly balanced weapon. Spears, used for fighting, and javelins (the pilum is essentially a javelin), used for throwing, are differently balanced, and this makes them difficult to use inappropriately. Ofcourse it would still be possible to throw a spear, or fight with a pilum - but very difficult and ineffective.
And yes, each legionnaire was equipped with two pila.

I'm not saying that one would use a pilum as a thrusting spear-- that would not work very well, for all the reasons stated. I'm simply saying that the pila were probably not usually used in the sort of "volley" fashion historians usually depict, that it would make more sense for a legionary to pick out a single opponent at close range and try to catch him through the neck.

Spears as they were employed in the days before the Hoplon tended to break very quickly as well-- the whole point here is that it only takes one. Maybe your spear breaks on your enemy's shield, or maybe you throw it and miss, but if you hit-- he's dead and you're still alive.

This is why I would view the Pilum as the primary weapon of the Legion. They're not trying to take out shields, they're trying to KILL people. If someone's shield gets busted, great, but if you hit him in the shoulder, better. And no matter what happens you're going to charge en masse and try to stab them to death, and your buddies behind you will continue to throw pila in support.

THIS is why I think they should be factored into melee. Not because it would be the weapon of choice in hand-to-hand combat, but (a) because it could be used to DECIDE combat before it becomes hand-to-hand, and (b) because I've heard many historians say that it would be used by the rear ranks to hit the enemy once engaged.

DA

P.S.: It was not just the Legionaries that carried two Pila. Spear-armed infantry going back to the masses at Ilion, to the Peltasts and other light infantry of the Roman days, right up to the Saxon men-at-arms in 1066 routinely carried more than one spear, as much because of their breakability as their usefulness as missiles.

Of course, but Pila weren't really spears. They were a type of heavy javelin. The Romans disdained ranged combat, preferring to engage in shock combat in the Greek fashion. I don't doubt that the Pila could be used the way you describe, but I just have a hard time seeing the Romans actually using it that way...

I'm sure that the legionnaires would by all means have prefered to kill or maim their opponents rather than rendering their shield useless, but this rarely happened, as any enemy with a shield would attempt to block with his shield - being successful more often than not, but this would mean they would have to discard their shield - effectively meaning they are completely at the mercy of the Roman gladius, especially considering that most of Rome's enemies, especially from the north, used large and cumbersome swords, with which it is difficult to block against the swift stab of the relatively small gladius.

Will the game have 2 pila of equal properties or will it be simulating the light pila followed by the heavy? or with the speed of the game will the heavy pila even get used (units take so long to throw in the game and advancing units are so quick, i doubt there would be time inside the range of the heavy pila!

the only way i currently get to use the Pila is if my untis disengage from the enemy and are able to maneuver so I can get off another shot before charging in again. Oh, also putting units behind the main line and throwing Javelins works a bit - but be careful not to kill your own units...