We as generals

There is a passage in Sun Tzu's The Art of War that describes the problems one can encounter with generals:

"One committed to dying can be slain,
One committed to living can be captured,
One easily angered and hasty to act can be insulted,
One obsessed with being scrupulous and untainted can be shamed,
One who loves the people can be troubled."

It is interesting... with the TW series and us being the generals, are these applicable? Or do we have a sort-of godlike infallability about us because we are at such a distance from the computerised battlefield/campaign?

Obviously we can lose, but not for the reasons Sun Tzu outlines... we lose because we're not tactically good enough or are simply facing insane odds.

I imagine this comes up in MP play, though... some players will have a deathwish and throw everything at the enemy immediately, some will hang back and hope to survive, etc.

Interesting... I suppose I suffered from the "One easily angered and hasty to act can be insulted" line last night.

I had my English forces lined up nicely on a hill with the FSarges at the front, on the left behind them were Billmen, in a line behind the FS were Longbows. On the left flank was a hill, on the right a wood, in which I had two groups of FMAA hidden. At the back were some Hobilars. Behind me a slight slope and the edge of map.

Anyway the Frenchies (who else) have a bunch of Alan Mercenaries, Templars and other Cav. and they charge towards my right flank... some of them going through the wood. Looked like the Templars might outflank my FS through the wood, so I charged my FMAA down onto them and spun the FS to face them... whilst moving my billmen over from the left to bolster the right flank.

Well... I won. But... I think I made a mistake by wheeling my FS to fully face the threat on the right from the wood as the Alans were able to come down and smack into their exposed left. It was only because the billmen arrived in the nick of time, and the FMAA were pretty successful against the templars that my right didn't collapse. PHEW.

As you can see, if I hadn't been so hasty to face the right hand threat, maybe my FS could have been partially wheeled back so that they didn't present an exposed flank to either the front or the right.

I'm learning... slowly.

easily angered and hasty describes me too.

I occasionally arrange my troops and maneuver perfectly for attack/defense and then suddenly on an impulse send them all charging at full speed at the enemy without regard to tactics.

I only do this when having vast superiority and definitely get less favorable kill ratios but win regardless

sometimes I'm hasty, if I can't be bothered with a fight I'll send in the cav early. I suffer horrible losses sometimes on my cav. Playing the English lately though is helping me remedy this. All I have to do is wheel my formation of CS spears, longbowmen and billmen and the enemy abandons strong defensive positions and even runs from the field without a fight out of fear. I'm learning patience and the joys of carpal tunnel syndrom as I try to make smooth troop movements.

Sometimes my impatience pays off though. Last night I got tired fighting a re-emerged turkish faction and so I just selected all my units and double clicked on the turks who turned and "marched quickly" off of the battle field. Not a single person died on either side.

Ha, I have honestly never tried the "select all and attack" tactic, but I suppose that must be rather worrisome for the AI. ~:) Will have to try it out one of these days.

I tend toward caginess and caution, maneuvering etc. I suppose I'd fall into the one who clings to life category --- if my general loses, he gets captured every time and ends up with that pesky been-captured vice.

what are you talking about? captured is awesome! it gives huge morale boost to the army if you can level it up. titles make up for the loss of command.

morale is what the game is all about and getting +9 morale on your best general is unreal and combined with leader virtues and things like gentle knight can make even peasants stay and fight.

I would sometimes select all and double click on the enemy general.

in some cases, this is actually better than using actual tactics due to large morale hit the enemy get where their general gets sacked.

Easily angered and hasty is definetly where I fit in. It has not affected my game play terribly yet although, I have lost a battle or 2 on the defensive because of it. I was losing badly anyway and would usually charge all my forces in to inflict as many casualties as possible before they routed. This way when I attack to retake the province in the next round there are not as many enemy to deal with.. Been a good tactic so far

A calm and patient aconomist perdominantly. I don't start wars, much, I don't go for huge empire building, until I have to, and I'm good to my citizens. But if someone attacks me, or a close ally then retribution is swift and devestating. I believe in having a small, well trained army and use them to crush much larger forces of pesky enemies who dare to encroach on my land. Otherwise I'm generally peaceful. :)

So understanding Sun Tzu would mean I can be easily shamed : "One obsessed with being scrupulous and untainted can be shamed"

I think I fall into the 'clings to life' catergory. Whatever the type of battle I do my best to keep as many of my troops alive as possible, almost never refuse to pay ransoms and tend not to go empire building and stay home and build instead.

I also agree the captured line or vices can be virtues, +9 moral is great on field commanders, it more than makes up for -3 command because 3 command doesn't make 9 moral at all, and me with my survivalist idea's tend to have high valour troops because they all come home.

This is where MP comes into its own. The varying styles, tactics and levels of aggression from your human opponents always gives variety to every game, something you dont get with battles against the AI. I tend to find battles against the AI flat and uninspiring in comparison.

-One committed to dying can be slain;
-One committed to living can be captured;
During tournament games, players not used to that games could panic....because they fear too much to loose.

-One easily angered and hasty to act can be insulted;
lol, how many times happened. Not only during the game, but even to do some pressure on someone to play against.

-One obsessed with being scrupulous and untainted can be shamed;
Too much care in keeping an ordered and clear army deployment... slow general :)

-One who loves the people can be troubled;
In multi battles(2vs2 or more), attacking usally the weaker enemy(or the girl), forces the other allyes to support him/her..even if they are by themselves in difficult situation.
NOTE: It's important to cooperate and help the ally in troubles, but without weaking too much on its own side.

How does one wheel an entire formation of several units? Mine always lose their matched-flanks and get out of line, unless I re-group them. Is there a way to wheel several groups as one?

:deal2:
I don't think it's exatly what the thread was about ....
but try to group them with G, and then ALT + right click on the spot u wanna them to face as described here:
http://shogun-academy.tripod.com/dojo_ch2_pg1.html

:bow:

It was jsut an aside form a post above where the poster reckoned you could "wheel" some units to face a new front. I have found no way of doing this without having to group them into one, but some people reckon you can (I think they're fibbing!). It is not in the manual.

No problem at all m8, I've just replyed...because I was too tempted by that Smilie ~:cheers:

I like this game because it is as realistic as any game gets. But people that play it are detached form 'reality' because its only a game, People play to win the battle they are in with no though of its after-math. Because their are no consequiences for failure. So I must say Sun Tzu's concepts apply to an extent but are limited.

Do not mistake that this is only a game. And we are no more generals than anything. It is a far different matter when there is a real risk of death and there are real consequences.
D

nonsense! contrary to popular belief, there is no life outside MTW. It's only the matrix. set thyself free through MTW. defeat the forces of evil and it's the only chance to reach the real truth. ~;)