Romans lack their double punch.

OK, I'm getting real sick of CA not living up to what they say about this game being "accurate". The main problem with the romans is that they lack the double punch of throwing pila first while charging. Instead here's what happens.

1. order to attack given.

2. Ok stand around for a minute

3. alright get your pila ready, hey, face the same direction

4. Ok hold your pild like little idiots for a moment

5. now throw your pila

6. Ok stand like retards while the enemy charge you

7. Now CHARGE. (while the enemy is cutting you to pieces)

by the time they recieve theirs oders to throw the pila and actually do it and attack, the enemy force has already charged and cut every roman to pieces, and the romkans are suppose to throw their pila on the "RUN", not stand around and throw them. Plus they only throw one and then charge. Up until the Marian reforms, most of the Hastati and Princepes had two at the least. One heavy Pilum for short range throwing, and a lighter long range one that the velites use. This really ticks me off, cause the phalanx forces get all that they had and even the Cav are really good, the romans not only get a crappy line unit (Triarii with an attack of 7 while almost every phalanx unit is way stronger than that) but they don't even get the double punch on the run attack they need to win.

The Romans were not meant to be played in the demo. They were only added by a mod.

The AI for the Roman units is most likely not done or finalized yet.

Remember that a demo usually looks at least 25% different from the actual game.

yeah their whole pila deal sucks shit, no one dies - or not enough guys, it's supposed to really distrupt the enemy, unfortunately the game doesn't realistically depict human emotions - huih, it's not liek I expected Rome to perfectlyh make the AI an emotional being and afrtaid of pila flying in for my chest!!!

The units are armed with two pila per man (I've tested it and see everyman throw the first, while having a second shown on missile display bar.) When charged by fast troops, they are more likely to cock back to throw, then not throw at all and counter charge instead--a bit of a problem with the AI. I've also seen that against a stationary unit, they will throw the first, but not the second pila (when I am commanding.) Instead, they switch to attack/charge. There might be a reason, I dunno. I would be more inclined to take down as many of the enemy as I could with pila before engaging...but perhaps that is wrong for some tactical or strategic reason. I can get them to throw the second pila at other units or in other ways at times.

Watch for countercharges in the game. If you can time them right, they are very effective at times. Supposedly the original charger is a bit disordered (from the longer charge distance.) I have read somewhere that Caesar and others believed that you should not remain stationary to meet a charge, but should countercharge instead. This makes sense for the Romans, as gladius armed troops are by nature an offensive weapon, not defensive like spear armed troops. (This also appears to be why many Roman armies planned to batter down the center, rather than use cav and the like for outflanking.) Besides sheer momentum, there are probably some psychological benefits to countercharging (being active) rather than bracing to take a charge (might leave you feeling a bit helpless.)

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Besides sheer momentum, there are probably some psychological benefits to countercharging (being active) rather than bracing to take a charge (might leave you feeling a bit helpless.)

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Veering wildly off-topic, this reminds me of one of my favourite bits of the Return of the King movie, when Theoden rallies the riders of Rohan in the face of the giant elephants calling out:

"Reform the line, meet them at the charge!".

A real Total War moment.

I don't think the problem is with historical accuracy. Javelin and other short projectile units have an AI problem all the way back to STW:MI. CA has never been able to figure it out. Bow units are best to put in skirmish mode but the actual skirmishers actually are useless using skirmish mode and should be put into engage at will. Hopefully, CA can figure it out in a week or two. The skirmisher units are really dumb in the demo and I had to put them in engage at will again, like all the javelin units in MTW, just to get them to chuck some javelins.

skirmish mod is not for javelin troops generally, it seems they maintain the distance of the enemy the same as archer units, problem is their projectiles range is shorter than a bow wich never gives them a chance to throw the javelins.

I hope CA fixes this, make javelins skirmish range shorter to actually allow them to throw javelins instead of doing nothing. micromanagement in big battles is usually a pain in the arse.

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Originally Posted by Nerouin

The Romans were not meant to be played in the demo. They were only added by a mod.

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What faction do you play in the tutorial then?

You are correct on that count- whoops.

I was never given the option to throw Pila, as far as I remember- or perhaps I just ordered them to attack forthright.

The Legionaires are NOT set to Fire at Will by default. If you turn that on they will throw all their javelins at anyone in range until they run out. Then tell them to charge.

Apologies for bumping up this old thread, but I just got the full game and this lack of a Roman double punch is really bugging me. You tell them to attack some Gauls, they stretch their arms back as the Gauls hurtle towards them at an incredible speed and are just about to release the pila when the Gauls crash into them with their charge bonus. The Romans lose both the pila and the charge bonus. I suspect the problem is the excessive running speeds, but it seems like very sloppy programming - the Romans should be able to get off a javelin at a charging enemy and then counter-charge.

EDIT: I know you can alt-right click to make them use their swords and so get the charge bonus, but it is still annoying to lose the pila volley.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Apologies for bumping up this old thread, but I just got the full game and this lack of a Roman double punch is really bugging me. You tell them to attack some Gauls, they stretch their arms back as the Gauls hurtle towards them at an incredible speed and are just about to release the pila when the Gauls crash into them with their charge bonus. The Romans lose both the pila and the charge bonus. I suspect the problem is the excessive running speeds, but it seems like very sloppy programming - the Romans should be able to get off a javelin at a charging enemy and then counter-charge.

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Yeah, it really bugs me having to solve the problem by using Hastatii like super strong velites. I always have to put my pila throwing dudes behind the guys I want to receive the charge. Kinda annoying, and certainly not really that realistic.

Plus my frontline of hastatii that recieves the charge never gets to use their pila.

The pm units are noticeably quicker with the pila. You can often get them in even before a cav charge.

early legionary, legionary, praetorian, and urban.

for balance reasons, I think it's best that hast/princ take some time to throw their pila. THey're too powerful otherwise.

i discovered on my own that if you put them on guard mode and skirmish mode, they will throw their pila, then charge. i was feeling pretty good then i noticed that they had put that info up at the .com

I haven't had this problem but I do it differently. I suppose from STW I'm in the habit of having an artillery duel first, then hand to hand. When attacking, I march my units up so they are just in range and set them to fire at will. Once all missiles are used up, I move in to finish them off. When defending, I set them on guard mode and fire at will. They have no problems getting off at least 1 round before the enemy hits but the enemy rarely hits so fast that I can't use the majority of my pila up before the hand to hand begins.

The added bonus is that while they are firing their pila, arrows etc, I can move my flanking units into position or encircle the enemy with cavalry without having to worry about how they are going. It also massively cuts down on the friendly fire.

Make sure you use all your missiles first otherwise you aren't getting all you can out of your units. That means you have to attack in 2 stages like above.

The problem however seems to be that they only ready pila in order to fire when the enemy gets within range. It would be better IMO if when you set them to fire at will, they get their pila ready no matter where the enemy is. Then they can fire the first round as soon as the enemy is within range.

I don't have any problems with slow-thrown pilas. But then I click twice (the same way you would to make a unit run) and my guys respond pretty quickly, firing then charging at a run.

I've done the single-click attack and yeah it takes forever for them to heave their pilas, and then they don't charge as much as advance deliberately (swords out and shields up front).

They carry two pila, but single-clicking attack leads to the 1-pila, very slow transition to a charge.

This is either a bug or they are purposely saving the 2nd pila in case they are ordered to attack another unit later in the battle and want to hit them with a pila too.

I too am annoyed at how slow these units are to respond to orders unless you double-click. If an enemy unit charges, your unit should stop using the jav when the nme gets so close your unit won't have enough time to get their own charge going.

The problem here is movement is too fast ~;) . If you use one of the mods to slow things down to MTW speeds you'll find this stuff actually works and skirmishers actually get a chance to skirmish. I've a feeling the devs sped things up at the last minute maybe from feedback from slightly ADD gamers. Of course you'll also need a mod reducing damage by corresponding amounts or units with speed and/or range would become very unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Sparky

The problem here is movement is too fast ~;) . If you use one of the mods to slow things down to MTW speeds you'll find this stuff actually works and skirmishers actually get a chance to skirmish. I've a feeling the devs sped things up at the last minute maybe from feedback from slightly ADD gamers.

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Legal concluded that they were not allowed to include ADD meds or referrals in the box, so Marketing ordered the developers to change it. :freak:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Legal concluded that they were not allowed to include ADD meds or referrals in the box, so Marketing ordered the developers to change it. :freak:

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Something along those lines. ~D