Non-phalanx anti-cav bonuses not working

It appears that non-phalanx anti-cav bonuses are not working. triarii, auxilia, etc do no better against cav than hastati and triarii. i've noticed this casually before, but i just did 10 runs, med difficulty, syrian flats (flat ground).

hastati v. long shield cav (average 27.4 hastati remaining)
auxilia v. long shield cav (average 22.8 auxilia remaining)

All I did was click on the enemy right at the start, and sit back and watch the fight. I dropped observations where a general died in the intiial charge, and the unit routed (for either side).

Did not use javelins so missile fire does not account for the difference.

I did, however, charge into the horses when they ran off to try to regroup for another charge. that was the only interference i made with the tests. (actually what I did was click BEYOND where the cav were regrouping to, then click on the cav after the inf regrouped. just clicking no the cav, the inf would just sit around doing nothing while the cav ran off to prepare for another charge)

aux have 2 more defense and 2 less atk than hastati. if rtw uses the same combat resolution system, trading def for atk is a near wash. Though atk will increase the time before the battle ends, and i believe also have a "snowball" effect as units die. that's my theory as to why the hastati are not only not doing worse, but are doing BETTER.

Perhpas the desert climate is bad for this test (aux are more heavliy armored), but if the cav bonuses were working (stat file says +4. i assume this is either to atk or def or both), then fatigue should not make a difference since these are fresh troops. They don't become winded until near the ned of the fight if at all.

btw spearman aren't so hot against cav either.

phalanxes aren't bad against head on charges.

but it's so easy for cav to move around that the phalanx becomes irrelevant. And it does not appear that spearman to any better in normal melee once the phalanx is not directly head on an enemy. (despite what the stat file says)

normal legion troops seem to be the best bet against cav.

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

It appears that non-phalanx anti-cav bonuses are not working. triarii, auxilia, etc do no better against cav than hastati and triarii. i've noticed this casually before, but i just did 10 runs, med difficulty, syrian flats (flat ground).

hastati v. long shield cav (average 27.4 hastati remaining)
auxilia v. long shield cav (average 22.8 auxilia remaining)

All I did was click on the enemy right at the start, and sit back and watch the fight. I dropped observations where a general died in the intiial charge, and the unit routed (for either side).

Did not use javelins so missile fire does not account for the difference.

I did, however, charge into the horses when they ran off to try to regroup for another charge. that was the only interference i made with the tests. (actually what I did was click BEYOND where the cav were regrouping to, then click on the cav after the inf regrouped. just clicking no the cav, the inf would just sit around doing nothing while the cav ran off to prepare for another charge)

aux have 2 more defense and 2 less atk than hastati. if rtw uses the same combat resolution system, trading def for atk is a near wash. Though atk will increase the time before the battle ends, and i believe also have a "snowball" effect as units die. that's my theory as to why the hastati are not only not doing worse, but are doing BETTER.

Perhpas the desert climate is bad for this test, but if the cav bonuses were working (stat file says +4. i assume this is either to atk or def or both), then fatigue should not make a difference since these are fresh troops. They don't become winded until near the ned of the fight if at all.

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FYI, Carthaginian Long Shield cavalry gets a +1 modifier on desert terrain and it gets a -2 from its Fatigue for hot climates so those Hastati and Auxilia definitely had the deck stacked against them. Yes, it shouldn't affect the results too much if the Anti-Cav bonuses were in place for the Auxilia but I would definitely recommend a nice neutral grassland or arid terrain map.

Open the 'export_descr_unit.txt' file in the data folder and check out the 'stat_ground' values for cav units.

stat_heat Extra fatigue suffered by the unit in hot climates
stat_ground Combat modifiers on different ground types. From left to right scrub, sand, forest, snow

Here's three examples to work off...

type carthaginian medium cavalry
dictionary carthaginian_medium_cavalry ; Long Shield Cavalry
stat_heat -1
stat_ground 0, 1, -6, -1

type barb cavalry gaul
dictionary barb_cavalry_gaul ; Barbarian Cavalry
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, -2, -4, 2

type roman medium cavalry
dictionary roman_medium_cavalry ; Roman Cavalry
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, -6, 0

Oops, forgot the infantry units you used...

type roman hastati
dictionary roman_hastati ; Hastati
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0

type roman infantry auxillia
dictionary roman_infantry_auxillia ; Auxilia
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 3, 0

Those Hastati and Auxilia must have been hurting in the desert and heat. Try it again on a temperate, grassland map.

i know about the stat_heat variable. aux is at 4, and hast at 3.

it shouldn't matter. these are fresh troops fighting a single engagement. they usually never even became winded by the end of the battle.

Desert climate or not, both units beat the long sheild cav easily. it's irrelevant what bonuses the long shield receive becuae i'm using the same cav unit and same climate in every test.

the probelm is the hastati consistently beat the cav with fewer casualities than aux, the nominally anti-cav unit.

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

btw spearman aren't so hot against cav either.

phalanxes aren't bad against head on charges.

but it's so easy for cav to move around that the phalanx becomes irrelevant. And it does not appear that spearman to any better in normal melee once the phalanx is not directly head on an enemy. (despite what the stat file says)

normal legion troops seem to be the best bet against cav.

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You guys just don't know how to use phalanxes. Here's how its done (linked to avoid h-scroll ~;) )

phalanx

The phalanx does not move, no matter what. They simply hold the center while your cat archers do the dirty work.

The computer cannot beat it, ever. I lost 70 men and killed 700 in that particular battle, i've done better with the same tactic, though. 50 of those 70 losses were the stupid horse archers dieing to enemy chariot archers, but it can't be helped, because cats take 2 turns each to make, and in a campaign I don't have that luxury.

I use this same formation with the Greeks and with Pontus. I have yet to lose with it. I have destroyed an enemy pincer, despite a hole in my circle (that battle I made a circle, not semi-circle.)

Heck, I'm using "the poor man's hoplite", and my lines held against the enemy while my Cat archers destroyed their army in a horrific slaughter.

I'm not talking about phalanxes. Please don't turn this into a tactical thread. I'm talking about the bonuses given to NON PHALANX anti-cav units. For example, for triarii, you have:

mount_effect horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4

And the in-game desciripoin also indicates that they receive bonuses against cavalry.

This appears to not be the case, unless my tests are somehow anomalous. I don't know how they would be, though.

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

I'm not talking about phalanxes. Please don't turn this into a tactical thread. I'm talking about the bonuses given to NON PHALANX anti-cav units. For example, for triarii, you have:

mount_effect horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4

And the in-game desciripoin also indicates that they receive bonuses against cavalry.

This appears to not be the case, unless my tests are somehow anomalous. I don't know how they would be, though.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

btw spearman aren't so hot against cav either.

phalanxes aren't bad against head on charges.

but it's so easy for cav to move around that the phalanx becomes irrelevant. And it does not appear that spearman to any better in normal melee once the phalanx is not directly head on an enemy. (despite what the stat file says)

normal legion troops seem to be the best bet against cav.

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Sorry, I was responding to your post that said that "its easy for cav to move around the phalanx", and I was pointing out that it isn't.

My spearmen seem to slaughter chariots pretty quick, assuming that they stand still. Of course, against pikes, the chariots die when the touch the tip.
~D

I just realized something. In Medieval there were TWO kinds of anti-cavalry bonuses, one for Attack and one for Defense. Spear units always possessed better defense bonuses against cavalry and Halberds and other polearm units had better attack bonuses.

Now since there are no polearm units in RTW is it conceivable that the anti-cavalry bonus is only being applied to a unit's 'Defensive Skill Factor'?!? If this is the case then attacking cavalry with anti-cav infantry is sure to skew the results. Have you tried simply forcing the cavalry unit to frontally charge these different kinds of units and then checking your results? In order to keep the numbers the same you might want add 'Impetuous' to the Long Shield Cavalry's stats so that it is more likely to mount a frontal charge against your units (either that or simply assume control of the cavalry and do it yourself).

Just a thought.

Those tests have been done, Spino
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36902
The AI cavalry always assaulted front on.
Triarii:
Attack 10
charge bonus 7

Total defence 19 (23)
Armour 7
Skill 7
Shield 5
(vs cavalry +4)

On paper it seems they should go better defending, but they fared much better attacking. Maybe it nullified the cavalry charge bonus?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spino

I just realized something. In Medieval there were TWO kinds of anti-cavalry bonuses, one for Attack and one for Defense. Spear units always possessed better defense bonuses against cavalry and Halberds and other polearm units had better attack bonuses.

Now since there are no polearm units in RTW is it conceivable that the anti-cavalry bonus is only being applied to a unit's 'Defensive Skill Factor'?!? If this is the case then attacking cavalry with anti-cav infantry is sure to skew the results. Have you tried simply forcing the cavalry unit to frontally charge these different kinds of units and then checking your results? In order to keep the numbers the same you might want add 'Impetuous' to the Long Shield Cavalry's stats so that it is more likely to mount a frontal charge against your units (either that or simply assume control of the cavalry and do it yourself).

Just a thought.

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in mtw, the standard spear bonus was spear 1/4, polearm 4/1, and pike 2/6.

in any event, it does not matter, a difference of 4 in atk OR def should give aux a dramatic advantage against cav. Instead, they do worse than vanilla hastati (though they are nominally the post-marian "upgrade").

It would not surprise me if NONE of the unit bonuses (velite glads against elephants, camels against horses, etc) are working.

Sitting back and getting charged over and over is a sure way to die, both in the test and in the game. You beat cav by bogging them down in a slugfest. If you let them disengage and charge against you're giving them a charge bonus (and probably cav charge morale penalities to your own unit) over and over.

Casually, however, I did set both units in guard mode a few times and sat back and waited for the charge. Both units did far worse (often losing the batatle) than with an attack and re-engagement. the aux still did not do noticeably better.

CA, can we get a response on this? is there some special way yoiu need to use these units to get cav bonuses? there was a thread on .com about this as well. And a thread on twcenter about how terrible auxilia are performing. It makes a big differnece in how you plan your force prdouction, and how you manage the battlefield.

One thing that really bothers me is the idea of cav getting ANY charge bonus vs. frontal attack on spears. Why should they get any bonus for doing something that should be fairly suicidal? It just doesn't make sense to give a bonus for attacking a unit in precisely the manner that the unit was designed to defend! ~:confused: Flanks and rear charge vs. spears the cav should get nice bonuses, but frontal should get no bonus IMO.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

One thing that really bothers me is the idea of cav getting ANY charge bonus vs. frontal attack on spears. Why should they get any bonus for doing something that should be fairly suicidal? It just doesn't make sense to give a bonus for attacking a unit in precisely the manner that the unit was designed to defend! ~:confused: Flanks and rear charge vs. spears the cav should get nice bonuses, but frontal should get no bonus IMO.

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Agree. putting that on my list of things to mod.

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Originally Posted by Thoros of Myr

Agree. putting that on my list of things to mod.

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I'm not sure we can mod that. I mean, if special bonuses aren't working, then the only way to balance that is to just beef up the infantry, which will unbalance things in other ways...

If the problem is that special bonuses aren't working, then I think we're looking at a patch issue, not a mod issue.

Bump. Relevant to other thread. Also would be interesting to know for certain whether anti cav units really are anti cav.

I asked Jerome about this in a game modding question thread, here is the question and his response:

Spears/pikes vs. cav. We are seeing some odd effects where spear units don't seem to do that well vs. cav. (compared to sword infantry), and horses jump over phalangites, etc. Where should this be adjusted (file and stat), and is it working as intended by CA?

The default spear vs cavalry bonusses are hardcoded. It may be a balancing issue - I'll ask someone to investigate. Alternatively, you could use the 'mount_effect' entries in the unit database to boost the combat performance of specific units against mount categories or individual mount types. These are applied on top of the default bonus.