Friendly Fire--Addendum

I have not seen this aspect of friendly fire mentioned that defies common sense: even after disabling "fire at will" then hitting "halt/stop", they still fire the last round they were prepping to unload. AAAAAACCCCCCKKKKK!!!! So as "general/captain" we see the problem coming, we jump through all the hoops, issue necessary commands, and those incompetent boobs still shoot their own in the back. This has got to be a bug. :deal:

Officer: "Cease fire, we have friendlies in the line of fire, including the heir."

Men in ranks: "No problem, just let us squeeze off this last volley and we will follow your orders, sir."

Officer: "Take your time, I think I shall have a cup of tea and a biscuit."

PFFFTTT

:stars:

Thud

:oops:

LoL...I recently made the mistake of putting slingers behind my skirmishers and forgetting about "fire at will".

To the people that have losts gen's, leaders, and hiers...I'm glad it hasent happened to me...yet :)

Yeah, and the concept of having your Velites behind a front line of Hastati or Principe etc... would sure work a lot better if they could manage to heave their pilum over the boys in front instead of into the backs of their heads. Lately I've been putting the Velites out front and they can just run for their lives when the enemy charges.

Hastati Captain : "If I get hit in the back of me head with your dang pilum one
more time...I'm standing aside and letting the enemy cavalry
through."


Another feature I'd like to see is a command for your Hastati and Principe to attack with swords even if they have any pilum left. Especially when your Cav is engaged with infantry and you need them to charge the enemy for some hand to hand, instead of throwing the pilum and killing your own men. In that situation I've been just quick marching them to a point beyond the flank I need them to attack so when they come in contact they usually fight with their sword.

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

Another feature I'd like to see is a command for your Hastati and Principe to attack with swords even if they have any pilum left. Especially when your Cav is engaged with infantry and you need them to charge the enemy for some hand to hand, instead of throwing the pilum and killing your own men. In that situation I've been just quick marching them to a point beyond the flank I need them to attack so when they come in contact they usually fight with their sword.

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Alt+click works for that no?

I suppose that's why the Romans kept the Velites in front. ;)

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Originally Posted by Thoros of Myr

Alt+click works for that no?

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Yes, that works I think.

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Originally Posted by metatron

I suppose that's why the Romans kept the Velites in front. ;)

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Yeah, but the problem here is, that you CANT skirmish. You get to throw one pilum if you're in luck, and then they run. This happens because the speed is so high.

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

Yeah, but the problem here is, that you CANT skirmish. You get to throw one pilum if you're in luck, and then they run. This happens because the speed is so high.

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Yes, the skirmishers would actually work...if it wasn't a mad rush to the massive 10 second melee. It is no wonder they scripted the demo.

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Originally Posted by Thoros of Myr

Alt+click works for that no?

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Thanks Thoros! ~:doh: I guess I've been pulling a Homer. (To succeed despite idiocy) ~D

The worst is with Horsearchers. They fire on the move automaticly, which normally is awesome. But when chassing routing units they end up shooting my own men so often, they end up killing more or my men than my enemy did. It says they killed ten men, but I end up losing more along the lines of 30 or 40. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

The worst is with Horsearchers. They fire on the move automaticly, which normally is awesome. But when chassing routing units they end up shooting my own men so often, they end up killing more or my men than my enemy did. It says they killed ten men, but I end up losing more along the lines of 30 or 40. :furious3:

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Yep, the Numidian cav (javelins) are really bad about this. Some of this stuff should be automated...but the army command and control is lacking. C&C is geared for individual unit control, not army control. Combine this with the 16x play speed, and you end up being an unintended spectator, rather than active participant.

Maybe they included so much friendly fire to amplify the eye-candy and chaos.. I mean.. look at those arrows hail! The chaos.. the destruction! Even when killing routing units, you shouldn't have to be bored.. your own men kill themselves! More eye candy!
Of course, it always comes at a price. But seriously, do you want to see great stuff and rebuild those few losses, or be bored and have people do what you say?


Personally, the only ranged attack I used so far is with o(w)nagers. Rest is pure melee (not even horse skirmishers). Of course the o(w)nagers miss sometimes and kill a quarter of a cohort, but that happens... at least the o(w)nager can't kill itself ~;)

Hmm... that wouldn't work so well with my Parthians or Scythians. ~;)

Yes, friendly fire is a bother - after each battle, I check my losses against the enemies kills and count it as a good result if friendly fire losses are less than enemy kills. I now try to lead with archers/velites, rather than have them at the rear (as in MTW and STW). I suspect this is more historical - I was surprised in MTW that the crossbows and arbalests could shoot overhead with impunity.

With archers, their range is pretty good so you can sometimes use them profitably without being charged. And to be honest, if the AI does rush you that is pretty realistic too - better than just standing there to die on the city plaza. In MTW, I found archers almost alone could win battles for me - in RTW, they are more lethal but nonetheless account for a smaller proportion of casualties (as the AI closers more often and faster).

With velites, skirmishing is a problem but can nonetheless be used to provoke the enemy. I've noticed the AI try to charge my velites - they run behind my lines, the enemy looks at the wall of hastati and stops, often retreats. They then suffer from the hastati's fire at will pila and the velites come back after them. Javelins seem pretty powerful when they do get off.

I'm still in too minds about the units' charge speed - yes, it is fast and so emphasises initial deployment. But maybe this is realistic? The game abstracts from command and control, so maybe this is a way of bringing back in those considerations. To expect your units to immediately ceasefire seems rather realistic (consider "friendly fire" losses in the Gulf Wars, when command and control was far better than on an ancient battlefield).

I merrily toddled off & blockaded somewhere at the Senate's request.

Got myself a scorpion unit for my trub.

Couple of turns later, my 5 star gen is mopping enemy gen up routers & who picked up the wildly inaccurate shaft thrown from the scrapyard challenge lads?

Cue close up cinematic of a heroic death.

Shame you can't save replays of campaign scraps.

But i actually like the lag in order issue & response. They didn't have mobys & 10-20 secs isn't an unreasonable response from a unit in the heat of battle. The scorpion was doing well chucking wood into hvy cav initially & once they'd split it was fair enough that they should take a pop at the nearest enemy. I'd charged them from the other side from the scorp with my gen's cav but that beautiful shoal movement on engagement found my main man with his back to six foot of fast moving pointy stick.

Missiles don't recognise uniforms - battles are dangerous places - you gotta laugh at adversity

Well the lag might be OK, if the lag time wasn't longer than the melee itself. However, since we can't effectively use group commands, the battles take a few seconds, and routing is rapid; this lag doesn't fit at all. It really doesn't fit since we much issue a combination of individual orders anyway.

We took friendly fire in MTW...but it could be managed. Now we can't manage it. It is less immersive now than before.

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

Yeah, but the problem here is, that you CANT skirmish. You get to throw one pilum if you're in luck, and then they run. This happens because the speed is so high.

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So true :dizzy2: There are only a number of special situations where I am able to use pilum. During siege (and the enemy is surrounded ) and whenever the AI Units are too weak to go on a full on charge (such as the case with rebels).

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

Yeah, and the concept of having your Velites behind a front line of Hastati or Principe etc... would sure work a lot better if they could manage to heave their pilum over the boys in front instead of into the backs of their heads. Lately I've been putting the Velites out front and they can just run for their lives when the enemy charges.

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LOL What a shocker. you've actually ended up using historical tactics. that can't be right... :inquisitive:

Friendly fire was killing me until I decided to "remove" my archers from the battle just as the melee starts. I'll keep the archers in the front, as they should be, but as soon as they start to retreat, I'll send them to the rear.......far rear. I don't want them within range of my units when the fighting starts. They just don't care who they kill. They also seem to do far more damage to my troops than the enemy's. Believe it's because they have a clear shot at mine, while the enemy is protected behind a "wall" of my troops. ~:eek: Reminds me of that great line from "BRAVEHEART" when Edward orders his archers to release, and is questioned, "But won't that kill our men too?" "Yes, but it will also kill some of theirs." OOOOOHHHH, how true. I also send in my pilum units with attack set on "secondary". They are almost as bad when not actively engaged.

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Originally Posted by Catiline

LOL What a shocker. you've actually ended up using historical tactics. that can't be right... :inquisitive:

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I had the same thought, LOL. I like the fact that they can be used the historical way (except when rushed they won't throw, just run away.) However, once the velites retreat, they will shoot your own men in the back... I don't think that part is very historical. I can just see the angry hastati, beating the crap out of the velites in camp that night, followed by a "velite BBQ"--who needs flaming pigs when you have velites up for the duty?

Too bad we can't use more of the Roman army historically, in stages with commands like:
velites advance and skirmish
velites withdraw
hastati advance, throw pila and charge (as a cohesive line)
hastati fall back
principes advance, throw pila and charge (again)
prinipes fall back
triarii advance

I was really hoping we would see an interface with more of an army command feel to it, rather than an individual command feel. The kill and movement speed is not conducive to individual commands, but could work with general commands (although it will still need to be a bit slower to simulate the multiple layers of the attack.)

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Originally Posted by Catiline

LOL What a shocker. you've actually ended up using historical tactics. that can't be right... :inquisitive:

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Don't really know what tactics were historical. I just accepted the troop set up at the start of the battle (Velites behind Hastati & Principe) as the historical formation. Live and learn. :bow:

Personnally I like the way friendly fire occurs and the lag in obeying orders..

It stikes me as more "authentic" (for want of a better word) that I do not have godlike mental contro of my units... I need to think ahead, to plan ahead and to deal with potential problem before they happen...

Two example:

Firstly a classic early game battle as the Romans against the Gauls, we are setup facing each other in some woods but to the right of my units is a nice clear ridgeline, so I run my soldiers up to form on the ridgeline and try to turn the axis of the battle by 90%... It is working well, but the Gauls move faster than I expected and as I watch the last of my units movning into place Gaul warband appear on the edge of the screen running for my soldiers exposed flank (as they haev not turned into position yet)!! I slam on pause and have a think, well my MTW instinct is to select the unit about to be flanked and charge them at the Gauls. Their formation is broken but it would be better than nothing. But when I unpause the lag before the action is carried out mean the Gaul smack into the flank of my unit. Now I think this is good, the game punished me for not paying attention and did not allow my use of freezing time and mind control of my soldiers to get me out of the situation, so now I have to pay more attention..

Secondly, Fighting the Spainish still as the Romans I managed to break up the advance of a numerically superior force (it was trying to break my seige) with the liberal use of archers, balistas and catapults all set to fire mode (looked impressive.. ~D ) As we thinned out the enemy some started to break but the bulk waded through the fire to engage my infantry. The situation was getting dire as those Bull Warriors seriously kick arse... I performed the normal operation of halting all the missile units but leaving them on fire at will (in MTW a unit would not fire into your own troops on fire at will). This appeared to protect my units from the worst of our own missle fire, but note for future, catapults are hugely inaccurate!!. Anyway to break the enemy I sent what cavalry I had including the general on a flanking mission which worked beautifully and routed the Spainish horde, I stopped my infantry, left my cavalry mopping up. This is when desaster struck, and I could see it coming to... The catapults, still on fire at will, started firing at the enemy unit my general was cutting down! I tried halting them and and taking them off fire at will, but the fateful fire pot was already in the air.. I think it actually struck my general on his head.. ~:eek: :furious3: ...

But it was no one's fault but mine, I sent a valuable unit into a dangerous area and paided the price and again could not get out of it by means of instant mind control of my soldiers...

Personally I think it is all good....

PS. Question I have heard it hinted that the length of the lag in units obaying orders depends on your commanders star rating, is this true???

I don't mind (so much) the friendly fire that comes from shooting a mix of me and the enemy. What I find terribly annoying is when my archers are shooting at the enemy, but continue to plug my own troops in the back.

I mean, come on, historically speaking, one did NOT fire arrows in a straight line. You shot them in arcs. That means they go OVER the head of your troops, not in their backs. I had a fun battle with 0 casualties from the enemy (they never made it to my lines), but 30 deaths from arrows in the back. And this with my front line troops slightly farther down a hill than the archers.

Just insane.

Bh

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Originally Posted by Bhruic

I mean, come on, historically speaking, one did NOT fire arrows in a straight line. You shot them in arcs. That means they go OVER the head of your troops, not in their backs.

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Saw this happening myself... But again it was my fault in a way, I had placed my archers close behind my double infantry line and targeted them on some advancing enemy troops. At first all was well with the arrow arching over the heads of my infantry but as the enemy got close the archers kept dropping there aim until finally my infantry were in the way... ~:eek:

If I had stopped or retargetted (or simply moved them further back from the front line) the archers earlier the friendly fire would not have occured.

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Originally Posted by Bob the Insane

PS. Question I have heard it hinted that the length of the lag in units obaying orders depends on your commanders star rating, is this true???

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Doubt it is true, but if it is, then CA has made a good reason to increase command in generals.