Ways to help suicidal generals...

Hi,

I have been deliberating whether there's anything that can be done to help the occasional tendency for the AI to use its General suicidally, given the incredible amount of this game that can be modded? I've thought of several ways in which one could prevent the suicidal AI general issue. Like some say, it isn't as bad on the harder difficulties and it certainly isn't as bad as it has been in previous titles, but what do you think of these:

1. give the general units 3 HP instead of the default 2?

2. they are listed as cavalry in the unit file. Maybe changing this to infantry or missile might help in preventing the headlong charge that they occasionally do? Missile might make them skirmish?

3. reduce their offensive values and increase their defensive values by the same amount. Thus skewing their effectiveness as an offensive unit. The AI might then use them accordingly?

I've tried number 1 and that obviously makes them a little more resilient, a definite plus against the stronger missile troops in RTW, but I'm interested to see what would happen with number 3.

Any thoughts?

I modded my generals to use triarri instead of cavalry to try to get rid of that problem, but the triarri still came in the cavalry sized units so it wasn't too helpful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Hi,

I have been deliberating whether there's anything that can be done to help the occasional tendency for the AI to use its General suicidally, given the incredible amount of this game that can be modded? I've thought of several ways in which one could prevent the suicidal AI general issue. Like some say, it isn't as bad on the harder difficulties and it certainly isn't as bad as it has been in previous titles, but what do you think of these:

1. give the general units 3 HP instead of the default 2?

2. they are listed as cavalry in the unit file. Maybe changing this to infantry or missile might help in preventing the headlong charge that they occasionally do? Missile might make them skirmish?

3. reduce their offensive values and increase their defensive values by the same amount. Thus skewing their effectiveness as an offensive unit. The AI might then use them accordingly?

I've tried number 1 and that obviously makes them a little more resilient, a definite plus against the stronger missile troops in RTW, but I'm interested to see what would happen with number 3.

Any thoughts?

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1) Giving generals more HP gives them greater survivability but it doesn't change the fact that they'll still be hell bent on glory by foolishly charging a wall of spears. It only delays the inevitable.

2) After doing some testing in custom battles (the first unit chosen for the AI army becomes its general unit) I have found that infantry generals, preferably the hardier spear wielding variety are good choices. They don't tend to get into trouble as often, especially if their stat_mental traits are 'disciplined' and 'highly_trained'. However, because they're infantry they have less of a chance of escaping if things go bad. Missile cavalry seems to be the best choice for the AI's general unit as they're inclined to keep their distance from the enemy. Unfortunately this also means there's a good chance their command rating won't have a positive effect on their troops' morale because they're running about here and there on skirmish mode. It's still better than a dead general though.

3) This might work but I think the unit's classification (infantry, cavalry, light or heavy) and primary weapon type ultimately determine its behavior in combat.

The following general unit is used by Armenia. They're tough and skirmish because javelins are their primary weapon.

type east generals cavalry early
dictionary east_generals_cavalry_early ; Eastern General
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier east_heavy_cavalry, 12, 0, 1
mount generals horse
mount_effect elephant -8, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, general_unit, hide_forest, hardy, no_custom
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 12, 4, javelin, 50, 6, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr thrown
stat_sec 12, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.5
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 5, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat -1
stat_ground 0, 1, -6, -1
stat_mental 10, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 960, 80, 100, 150, 960
ownership eastern

I think a quick fix would be to give all general units javelins as their primary weapon while retaining their best melee weapon as their secondary weapon. This way they'll stay out of harm's way unless absolutely necessary.

If you can mod this better I'll build a shrine and worship you every day. Literally anything would be better than the current situation (an AI patch would be ideal, but I'm not holding my breath).

Has anyone tried changing their class from being listed as "heavy" to "light"?

Conceivably this might aid their cause as the AI doesn't appear to use light cavalry for charging headlong into the middle of the battle.

I can't believe they didn't have this sorted out after they had to fix this in the first MTW patch! Were there two different teams for MTW and RTW or something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Hi,

I have been deliberating whether there's anything that can be done to help the occasional tendency for the AI to use its General suicidally, given the incredible amount of this game that can be modded? I've thought of several ways in which one could prevent the suicidal AI general issue. Like some say, it isn't as bad on the harder difficulties and it certainly isn't as bad as it has been in previous titles, but what do you think of these:

1. give the general units 3 HP instead of the default 2?

2. they are listed as cavalry in the unit file. Maybe changing this to infantry or missile might help in preventing the headlong charge that they occasionally do? Missile might make them skirmish?

3. reduce their offensive values and increase their defensive values by the same amount. Thus skewing their effectiveness as an offensive unit. The AI might then use them accordingly?

I've tried number 1 and that obviously makes them a little more resilient, a definite plus against the stronger missile troops in RTW, but I'm interested to see what would happen with number 3.

Any thoughts?

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Increasing the HP is probably the best approach. I increased the HP to 4 btw and the generals have decent staying power.

I tried making the Gaul general a druid and the german general unit a chosen. The troops do hold together better but when they do fall apart, the Gaul/German general is almost always killed.

I have had no luck changing the offensive values. The AI seems to charge all forms of cavalry except missile. The problem with making them missile cavalry is that the AI goes on a skirmish mode and the AI troops lose the general's presence. They become even easier to rout.

Yeah, generals really have to be a cavalry unit as a routing infantry general would be too easy a target for pursuing cavalry.

Turbo, in your tests did you try changing the Generals class from being listed as "heavy" to "light"?

One could also try lowering their morale. I know this sounds like the converse of what we should be doing, but quite often the general dies because in the hands of the AI his unit fails to retreat when it should. Sometimes the general's unit will be the only unit left on the battlefield and where the human would just withdraw the unit, the AI will fight till it routs or more likely dies. Combined with an increase in hit points to 3 or 4, this might be the best way to keep the generals alive from one battle to the next.

What do you think?

Coming back to that last point I made, I don't see any logical reason why the General should have a vastly greater morale than the other units in his army. Especially if he's to be used sparingly in battle and wants to live to see another battle. All this does is lead to the the army routing and the General hanging around to be slaughtered and I can't remember the last battle I had involving family members where the one who lost then lived to see another day.

Looking over basic troop morale:

Roman:
Equites 4
Hastati 6
Principes 7
Roman Cav 6
Legionary Cav 10
Cohort 10
Urban Cohort 12
Roman Gen Early 10
Roman Gen 10

Barbarians:
Warband 4
Barbarian Cav 4
Barbarian Noble Cav 8
Swordsmen 8
Chosen Swordsman 12
Barbarian Early Gen 12
Barbarian Gen 12

So, what this might suggest is to alter the morale of the General units to be just a little more than the rest of the units of their period.

E.g.:
Roman Gen Early 7
Roman Gen 10

Barbarian Early Gen 9
Barbarian Gen 12

Any thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Yeah, generals really have to be a cavalry unit as a routing infantry general would be too easy a target for pursuing cavalry.

Turbo, in your tests did you try changing the Generals class from being listed as "heavy" to "light"?

One could also try lowering their morale. I know this sounds like the converse of what we should be doing, but quite often the general dies because in the hands of the AI his unit fails to retreat when it should. Sometimes the general's unit will be the only unit left on the battlefield and where the human would just withdraw the unit, the AI will fight till it routs or more likely dies. Combined with an increase in hit points to 3 or 4, this might be the best way to keep the generals alive from one battle to the next.

What do you think?

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The AI charges all cavalry regardless of heavy or light classification. I suspect that it looks at the attack value, however, when I dramatically lowered it, the AI still charged the front line anyway.