Absurdly weak Carthage!!!

I started a campaign as Carthage and was annoyed at how weak they really were.Someone had a thread going here last week about this and i admit i scoffed at what i thought of as their inability to "deal" with a tough campaign.Boy was i wrong.Caralis has changed hands now 4/5 times with the Scipii currently holding it.I hold all of Sicily now but to be honest i have lost more troops on that blood soaked little island than the 4 Roman factions put together.My last reclamation of Messena was not too long ago.In the end i had to put together an expenditionary force under Hannibal himself.I invaded Italy and sacked the Scipii capitol and slaughtered the lot of them.I then moved on immediately and laid siege to Rome Itself.This had had the desired effect as the Roman armies are now all after my Italian force rather than down in Sicily or Africa but its a bit like Benny Hill with them chasing me all over Italy.
The Carthaginian troops are simply not up to the job of taking on Roman troops in a head on fight.I have had to flank and rear attack EVERY time while hoping my infantry will hold just long enough for the cav to arrive.
I have now modded the game(for AI use) for future campaigns to start the Carthaginians with more money and as soon as i figure out how they will get Sacred Band earlier(along with elephants the only units to stand up to Rome)and cheaper AND it won't take them 2 turns to train them.
Carthage deserved better from CA as it was political ineptness and not the strength of it's armies that laid it low.

Err...Carthage is hard, but not that hard. It's true your troops are weak, but they're also cheap, and Carthage in human hands can be very rich very quickly. So even though Iberian infantry suck, you can have hordes and hordes of them. ;)

Plus, wander around Spain and pick up some Baeleric Slingers and watch them cut your enemies to bits.

Round shield cavalry are also quite effective for their cost. And elephants are nigh unstoppable if you use them right.

Now Spain....that's a weak faction.

I actually wrote that post yesterday but couldn't get on to the site(second time in less than a week).Today as we sit here i am the proud owner of Rome and Capua and Arretium is under seige.I find all but the SB cavalry to be completely useless if left to their own devices.Iberian infantry?............what can i say.If i build hordes of them it just means the ones at the front route(even against Hastati) and panic the rest.Don't get me wrong,i enjoy the challenge but as i said i cannot auto-resolve even when i outnumber the enemy 2 to 1 because the AI gives the Romans the battle every time.
I shouldn't be complaining because this is the challenge i always wanted(not to take anything for granted in the battles)but Carthage was the faction i most looked forward to and i was annoyed at how under-powered their troops were in the early game.

I must say, if you would have built stables early on, you would have found no Roman Army a problem even in the harder early phase of Carthaginian expansion.

Round Shield and later Large Shield and somewhat later Elephants - add some Balearan Slingers for Stonewalls for defense.

You can make all Cavalry Armies and decimate the Infantry-heavy Romans.


I agree: Carthaginian Infantry are only good for Garrison use. Even the Sacred Band is not hot either.

Cavalry and Elephants all the way. Balearan Slingers are not shabby either.

I could have done better as Rome, too, as Cavalry rules this game. Besides some very special Chariots... ~:cool:

The base level (round shield) Carthaginian cav are good enough on very hard/very hard. You need to hit two at a time, you will take few losses because the infantry will rout about the time they both make contact. And getting the long shield cav helps, as well as various upgrades.

Use the Balearic slingers, that will force the enemy to come to you...and your cav can slaughter them wholesale.

The Carthaginian starting position is incredibly weak though. When playing other factions the Romans take Carthage out in short order. It will bet worse if CA fixes the reluctance of the AI to blockade ports. Part of the problem is that everyone gangs up on Carthage. So you have 3 AI Roman factions, plus Numidia, Spain, and Gaul going after them on the ground, plus the Senate boats will attack them at sea.

I was disappointed with Carthage also. I expected it to be the biggest challenge for the Roman factions (as it was historically), but in game that isn't the case at all. It isn't as rich as it should be, and it's units are rather weak. An AI controlled Carthage ALWAYS gets easily destroyed by the Romans.

IMO that has to be modded. I'll probably nerf the Egyptians somewhat while making Carthage more formidable. The most powerful faction in Africa should be Carthage, not Egypt.

My Carthage campaign went well once I figured out a good start strategy and IMHO I thought their units had a decent overall balance. I used the Poeni as my main battle line, backed up by cavalry and slingers and they didn't let me down. It just Carthage's starting position thats demanding. Once you cure that, your on your way to owning the world.

I suspect allot of people have not played the minor factions yet. Some of them don't even have half the variety of troops that Carth has. Carthage is hardly weak when you make a comparison as a whole. Actually I would put them in the top end of things. After taking 39 provinces, I think I can say that.

One question though, what did you do after taking sicily, i mean if you just sit there the romans will keep on invading nonstop. If you invade italy all roman factions and the senate will gang up on you with huge armies and will beat you down. That's where im having my problem.


Also whats IMHO

Build stone walls on the top city in sicily. The ai simply cannot take cities of that strength. Carthage is not underpowered, except when they are an AI power. I like the challenge, but I certainly am not having trouble. Spain is exponentially more difficult.

they can always lay siege to it, even though it takes like 11 years to win. Will they lay siege for that long??

I held onto both Sicily and Sardinia. The Julii focused on Sardinia. At first the Scipii and Brutii tried to take back Sicily, but I hammered them down so badly that they gave up after I smashed some large armies. The Scipii took a long time to build up enough units to be a threat again (with only a single province.) They switched their attacks to Sardinia in conjunction with the Julii. Usually the Scipii only sent in 3 or 4 units, every once in awhile it would get quiet, and then they would send in a stack. The Brutii got distracted by Macedon and the Greek Cities and left Sicily alone for a long time.

The nice thing about taking Sicily is that you have just castrated the Scipii, without invading Italy.

Yeah Scipii get bankrupt real fast without sicily. But they keep sending over one unti armies which can get annoying after a while.

IMHO means "In my honest opinion" ~:)

Yeah im in my carthage campaing now and the scipii have lost their edge. The last army they sent had two units in it(including their faction leader HA!)

The thing is i don't want to go into italy right now, but the julii and senate are constantly trying to invade, the senate fights my navy while the julii send over army after army, to get massacred. If i have to fight another julii army im going to retch!
And theres no making peace with them, i offered ceasefire and they attacked and sunk one of my ships the next turn. I don't want to fight any more romans!!

Once you get Peoni Infantry, you are invincible!! First, take out Scippii then attempt to attack the Senate. Those two are the most fu*king annoying things ever. Keep trade up adn mostly ignore your Iberian holdings until you either go into peace with the Romans, or you destroy them.

Maybe when they release Rome:Total War: Punic Invasion, the Carthaginians will get a much needed makeover in their stats.

Wasn't Carthage's infantry inferior to Rome's to begin with? I recall from a book regarding Cannae... Hannibal was sure enough that his center, composed of infantry, could not hold up to the immense push from the Legionnaires. He counted and planned for his center to bend, but not break, so his presence was required there to prevent a disaster. His cavalry on the other hand, which were on the flanks were quite excellent and cut apart their Roman equivalents and "sealed the deal" by attacking the rear of the Romans.

I haven't tried playing as Carthage, but from the occasions that I've faced them with Julii... their infantry can be easily managed by Roman infantry, but their Cavalry is quite deadly against Rome.

A quick, simple use for Carthagenian infantry is just meatshields for the Legionnaires, while the true punch of the Carthagenian Army is the Cavalry and a few Elephants.

I just started a carthage campaign tonight to take a break from my greek campaign. I managed to not lose a single settlement and actually take all of sicily, slay most of the scipii family, and conquer the numidians to take control of west africa. I am now going to invade egypt. I did all this in 20 years (40 rounds). The only thing I think is nerfed about the carthaginians is there trade. You dont get much, not like the greeks who get massive amounts of loot with the aegean under there control. And the Iberian Infantry are sorta worthless, but they have good "defensive skill" unlike the romans who rely on shield power. So dont be fooled by there stats. They are decent against other light infantry that would seem to be able to cream them. Oh... and Elephants are EVERYTHING. YOu need at least one group of them with every army, cause they wreck SHOP. ~:eek:

ive played carthage(on expert) now and i think they are very strong ihave made an alliance with numidia and the greek city states with millitary access no one of them have broken the treaty and i played them several years, i control now complete spain,sicily and the city of capua and the mediterranean sea i have never lost a city too the romans only one city in spain through civil war but i recapture them.
currently im at war with gauls and the last 2 roman nations no one of them can beat my armys.
and i dont know what i should do with the money i have, ive get so much every turn its awesome.
i think i join now my ally numidia against the egypts to have a challenge, i have heard they must be strong. ~D

get scutarii mercenaries when you are in spain and send them off to die in roman hands, a scutarii mercenary my seem weaker compared to the hastati, but the warcry gives them the upper hand, don't expect them to stand up against principes though.

i'm playin on hard/hard and i'm still thinkin of my nxt move...i lost cordoba after i beat back several gaul and spanish invasions then they got frustrated and bribed it after i lost my general in a careless battle...lost sardinal to juli cos i got my hands full at scily and beating back the roman navy...and numidian incursions so any tips to combat the navy?? i eleminated scipi by capturing capua, getting my peoni infantry soon..got to deal with the roman navy!! too many ships!! its 3 vs 1!!
any tips?? i'm thinkin of usin capua as a base to lure all the roman troops so i can besiege rome with hannibal! btw shouldnt hannibal start with better stats? hes only 3* and a good commander trait..i expected more.

I lost Cordoba too in the early game and haven't reclaimed it yet but i have the Scipii reduced to just Capua(which they took back off me) and the Julii have only Segesta(i think)left to them.The Senate are long gone but the Brutii are masters of Greece,Dacia and Germania.However i have now laid siege to 2 Brutii cities on the toe of Italy and blockaded a lot of their ports.I'm finally getting the Romans under control.The beauty of all this is that the Eastern powers have had time to develop with-out the Romans ruining their whole day.Looks like i'll be having some battles with full strength Parthian and Scythian nations. ~:)
I withdraw my complaint about a weak Carthage.............BUT i still think that they are no hopers in the early game and that the AI will NEVER make a go of it with them.Pity.

Heres a few hints for starting out as Carthage.

Make alliance with Spanish immediately.

Send your navy north and smash Julii navy immediatly as well to prevent them from taking Sardinia (calis?).

Move all your soldiers in Lilybuem (sicily) to the Scipii part and allow them to attack you, smash them with good generalship then immediately counter attack there city and take it. Elephants are the key to that battle, and the slingers.

After you do those three things start an aggressive campaign against the numidians and take the rest of western africa. Dont start beef with the spanish. The greeks tend to attack you in sicily. Wipe them out by sieging there city after you take the Scipii and weaking there Phalanxs like that through starvation.

Remember Carthage can make some decent money through trade, not alot like it should be but enough. Build port upgrades and bigger markets when possible.

Hi King Azzole,
Where were you a week ago when i needed you ~D
I have now through(mostly)bitter experience learned most of this for myself.It was fun to play though and i will play Carthage first when i get through the rest of the nation roster.
The Numidians lost 2 cities to me through their own stupidity thus enriching me further.I have trade alliances with Spain,Gaul,Greece,Egypt and the Selucids so cash is now no problem.My own way out of the situation was a lot harder than the good advice you just gave me though.I amassed a large army under Hannibal Barca and took Capua,Rome,Arretium and Arrinium(lost Capua later).This kept the Romans out of Sicily and off my African turf but was more costly and frankly a huge head-ache.
One thing i love about it all is looking back over the map at all the little crossed swords symbols telling me about all of Hannibals great victories.This really makes the game FEEL authentic to me and lets me believe that i'm somehow involved in a piece of history.

Gotta firstly say I'm only playing on normal level at the moment till I get the hang of things.

I'm well into my campaign as Carthage the early stages were a real struggle till I adopted the tips others posted on Carthage. I've taken all of Spain and Italy, hold Sicily and Sardinia. Destroyed the Nubians, Scipii, Senate and Julii. Maybe I'll move my capital to Rome, hehe! Allied with Pontus and the Dacians (the Pontic Navy saved my fleets bacon several times when they were in range, Carthaginian naval power is non existent in my game!).

Currently I'm waging war on the Brutii, Gauls and Egyptians (not out of choice though!). I'd allied with Egypt in the early years and got trade rights with them as I knew they are one of the worst armies to deal with. I mean those chariots and axeman are a real nightmare right folks? However several years later the sods stabbed me in the back and invaded my eastern province on their border taking Siwa then Cyrene as I could not hold them. I managed however to counter attack them and force them back to Egypt I've been fighting a corker of a holding action against them at Siwa for ages now. Hurray, i'm on the offensive, finally taken Alexandria off them!


Some of the tactics I now use which are working me and help me defeat the Romans, Spanish and Gauls.

Use cities with Epic walls or take them whenever possible, the Roman armies etc try to siege me to get them. As soon as a city is sieged I sally before they can build siege equiptment. Draw them up to the city walls and dive back inside. Then sit back and watch the tower ballista take the enemy units apart. When they break and head for the hills charge out with my cavalry and run them down. I think the Ai learnt from this as some times he won't be coaxed into range, now this is where I finally got the Carthaginian Phalanx to work for me.

I Deploy out of the city quickly in front of the walls. Form a continuous phalanx of several Poeni units three ranks deep (yea I know only 3 ranks! By the way if you disable the phalanx special formation these units will move at a much increased speed ie run! didn't cotton on to this until well into the game now can get a shift on with moving and deploying the phalanx units). I now Only switch back to phalanx at the last possible moment.
Deploy cavalry on the flanks pref long shields at least. Any skirmishers form in front of my phalanx (does that sound rude?). Balearic slingers are best if you can hire them got a better range then the standard sling unit.
General to the rear, any others like Iberians or Spanish also on the flanks of the Phalanx. (Mental note must hire Cretan archers).
If I have elephants and they are a must! they go furthest foreword of my units or on the extreme flanks gotta stay out of their way or they'll ruin your day if they stampede back at you!

Elephants are point and shoot at the heart of the enemy lines and watch them disrupt and create havoc, luvly, juvly! Try to break them through the enemy and out, hopefully before going bananas and decimating all and sundry, that means your own troops folks!
I use the phalanx line to pin the enemy while my cav works round their flanks and hit them in the rear if I can.
The skirmishers out front hopefully kill some enemy troops and take the sting out of any charges at the front of the phalanx or divert missile fire from them.
as they close.
On the flanks any misc troops hopefully protect the sides of the phalanx long enough for them to do their job, the cav also are utilised in a secondary role for this purpose.

I then transferred this plan to the open battlefield and it seems to work the majority of the time. I always try to fight my battles on flat open terrain for this tactic to work. I've found that the phalanx line ideally needs to be longer than the enemies battle line or at least equal, thats why I stretch it out. I try not to leave my elephants unattended for to long as I don't wont to lose control of them, I like to rest them so I can use them again and again to crush enemy formations.

I've taken Roman legions head on and defeated them, both Republican and Marian, the Gauls just break and run after a short fight! Try to avoid being flanked it can end up ruining your day.

It also worked against an Egyptian army but those pesky chariots are almost to much to handle and Pharaohs archers are deadly. If the chariots get room you've got a real problem on your hands I found you've got to box them in quickly with your cav. Its a different way of fighting against them.

don't forget you can turn the phalanx special move off and on when you want, and now really get them moving.

Mighty Carthage rules, watch out world here I come! (so I got a Roman name) ~D