Pre-emptive strike on Rome?

Is there any reason why I can't wipe out Rome and the other factions before the Senate outlaws someone?

Right now I have all of France, half of Germany, all of northern Italy, three huge navies, five huge legions. Rome has a few scattered ships and one or two pre-marian legions. The Skipy and Brute have been getting their tail handed to them by the comp.

So, I belive it is militarily easy to wipe these factions out, but will the game allow me to attack them yet? Is there any reaons why I would want to wait longer, possibly allowing the other factions to turn their tides and become more powerful before the Civil War? The way I see it, the further my empire expands, the harder it is to control, which could tie up more troops and so reduce the number I can throw against the other factions. I don't want to get so big that my legions are anchored down as garrisons in far-flung ghettos.

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Originally Posted by Servius1234

Is there any reason why I can't wipe out Rome and the other factions before the Senate outlaws someone?

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Yeah, you physically cannot do it. Try attacking another Roman faction and you'll see. If you want war to break out early, try assassinating other Romans and don't complete any Senate missions.

I attacked before I was outlawed. I saw the writing on the wall when my Senate popularity began dipping and my mission 'rewards' turned into "do it or else" statements. The only consequence of my attack was that I was outlawed and the Brutii and Scipii declared war on me.

you can't attack them untill you get a messege saying that the people support you and you can march on rome if you want to.
I had this messege in 220, when i just started the war with Egypt. I had time to completly conquere the east and secure my northern borders. I din't complete any senate mission unless it happened by accident (conquer a city that just rioted against me) Senate did not outlaw me untill 172, (when i was buying up all the other faction family memebers)

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Originally Posted by USMCNJ

you can't attack them untill you get a messege saying that the people support you and you can march on rome if you want to.
I had this messege in 220, when i just started the war with Egypt. I had time to completly conquere the east and secure my northern borders. I din't complete any senate mission unless it happened by accident (conquer a city that just rioted against me) Senate did not outlaw me untill 172, (when i was buying up all the other faction family memebers)

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Ah, yes. I did get that message, however I did not wait long enough to be outlawed afterwards.

So you please the Senate by successfully completeing their missions, and by doing so, when Civil War breaks out, the Senate (and SPQR Legions) are on your side and the other two get outlawed?

I guess the game won't allow you to attack Rome until the people support you, so what do you do to make the people support you?

Bread and circuses...

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Originally Posted by Servius1234

So you please the Senate by successfully completeing their missions, and by doing so, when Civil War breaks out, the Senate (and SPQR Legions) are on your side and the other two get outlawed?

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No, keeping the Senate happy gives you time to set yourself up to attack them on your own terms. No matter how much you please them they're not going to want to relinquish power after all.

I thought you got the favor of the plebs by conquering provinces. I think you get the message "you can march on Rome etc.." once you hit 25 or 30 provinces. At least it happened that way for me in 2 campaigns

So your people like you cause you keep them happy in your cities, but the Roman mob likes you cause you're all badass, conquering all these provinces and such. And keeping the Senate happy only buys you time huh? Fiddlesticks

^That's essentially it. Remember what happened to Ceasar's murderers...

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Originally Posted by afrit

I thought you got the favor of the plebs by conquering provinces. I think you get the message "you can march on Rome etc.." once you hit 25 or 30 provinces. At least it happened that way for me in 2 campaigns

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This sounds about right. If you don't keep the Senate happy they will outlaw you. If you do keep them happy, and at the same time keep the plebs happy, then it will alert you when you are able to march on Rome instead of just having them outlaw you. This is preferable obviously, so that you can spend a few turns preparing to invade Italy before the actual war starts.

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Originally Posted by AngryGerbil

This sounds about right. If you don't keep the Senate happy they will outlaw you. If you do keep them happy, and at the same time keep the plebs happy, then it will alert you when you are able to march on Rome instead of just having them outlaw you. This is preferable obviously, so that you can spend a few turns preparing to invade Italy before the actual war starts.

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But don't hold off for too long, or the Senate will start giving you ridiculous missions that will damage your overall strategic position, your alliances, and so on. If you don’t do them, they will start bringing out the big guns, like huge fines or suicides of Family members. And even if you do the mission, they just say that they are satisfied.

I know what you mean - you must attack quickly when given the chance. The senate told me 3 times to attack egypt, i just ignored them each time as i didn't want a war.

For me the last straw was my senate popularity dropping from 9 to 4 just because the people liked me!

I was beseiging one of the Greek cities (one in North-Western Greece - can't remember the name) in 265BC when my allies the Brutii came along and also attacked the city. The battle was fought immediately as I was already building siege engines and the battle lines showed myself and my Brutii allies lined up to attack the city which we took easily. Afterwards my troops were shown inside the city on the campaign map and the city and province were mine. Outside the city was the Brutii army. All fine so far I hear you say.
However, I received lots of messages from my allies, the first of which was from SPQR telling me that due to my actions against fellow Romans I had been outlawed. They declared war on me, which was followed by all the other Roman factions doing likewise.
No I didn't accidentally attack the Brutii, and no I wasn't breaking an alliance of any sort by sieging the city.
Thus you don't have to wait until you have the support of the people to be outlawed, you just have to behave perfectly normally and a game bug will ensure you're outlawed before long.
Needless to say I reloaded and lifted the siege, letting the Brutii have their precious city........

Exactly what happens if you attack an allied Roman faction before you receive the outlawed message anyway?

The other night, playing as Brutii, I made the Scipii town, Capua, go rebel (4 spies and two assassins sabotaging loyalty buildings achieved that). The senate didn't say a thing about my transgression. It gave me a mission soon after to blockade the rebel port... I will try taking the city from the rebels (a stack full of veteran principes) tonight: see what happens then.

Hmm, one more reason to look for easily-defensible borders. Expanding to 25-30 provinces could leave you VERY vulnerable. As the Julii I think I'll take Spain and France, hold the Germanic border from Belgica-Germania Superior-Noricum, blockading British and N. African ports. That's 19. Caralis and Palma make 21, Taking England and Ireland would be 25. If I can undermine the Scipii I can add much of N. Africa to make up the difference. That would take 1-2 N. African Legions, 1 Spanish Legion, 2-3 N. Italian Legions, 2 Germanic Legions, and maybe a Gaelic Legion just in case.

By the way, does anyone know why I can't build forts or towers in the lowland provinces of Germania Inferior. Is it because the land is supposedly too soggy? You can't build stuff in parts of NE Belgica too.

I had a strange experience, and it may have been that I'm using the 1.0 realism mod, but I was playing as the scipii (only roman faction I hadn't tried yet) and fairly early in the game rome outlawed ONE of the other factions, I believe it was the brutii, then the next turn the julii were outlawed.

THEN I saw that I had a chance to be with the rebellion or against it. I chose to be on the side of the senate and faced a few futile attempts from the Julii before I had taken all of italy except for rome and was well on my way to taking the brutii's holdings.

Suddenly, though, a few turns later I was asked to have my leader commit suicide, which I refused to do. So then *I* was outlawed, but with all of my legions out of italy and a sudden lack of funds because I was carrying on several wars at once (because of course, even in civil war the rest of the world was also at my throat) I used my diplomats to try and negotiate peace with rome so I could be better prepared to sack it later.

Strangly enough, they accepted my ceasefire and alliance! That lasted about 6 turns, when they cancelled the alliance on me, but I had enough income by then, having taken out all of the brutii just then and gotten their rich lands, to bribe half of their army away and hold off long enough to get a good legion back on the boot.

So that was an odd situation... but it raises a point, isn't it possible to muck up your rival roman faction's senate missions enough to cause the senate to turn against THEM and create a much more manageable civil war?

As a side note, I owned lands from the black sea to the british isles VERY early in the game this way (though I was so stretched thin several times that my empire almost collapsed) and my production was atleast 4 times that of the closest second nation. Ironincally, my Scipii's then turned around and propped up the wavering carthagenian nation after almost descimating it.(because egypt was about to take over the entire southern med but I couldn't afford/didn't want to fight another war at the time) It was quite fun actually, I sent diplomats/spys/assassins down that way and bought a numidian general, trained up a mercenary force (1 elephant unit, 1 general, 3 cavalry, 2 skirmishers) and with a little creativity and a lot of bribing, conquered and then GAVE carthage all of those lands, accept one, which I use as an elephant recruitment camp ~;) . Now they are strong enough to combat egypt (back up from only two provinces) and so I've bought myself about 20 years of time when I'm not really going to have to worry about the lower med.

Oh god I'm rambling now... okbye

Easy answer..... tell the other 2 factions that they no longer have trading righs, no longer have military access and are no longer your allies. The answer is the senate outlaws the other 2 factions for declaring war on you and the senate outlaws you for being a prick.

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Originally Posted by oaty

Easy answer..... tell the other 2 factions that they no longer have trading righs, no longer have military access and are no longer your allies. The answer is the senate outlaws the other 2 factions for declaring war on you and the senate outlaws you for being a prick.

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LOL, so there's a penalty for being a prick ?! ~D
Seriously now, have you actually tried this ? 'Cause it sounds really crazy...and I love the idea ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by afrit

I thought you got the favor of the plebs by conquering provinces. I think you get the message "you can march on Rome etc.." once you hit 25 or 30 provinces. At least it happened that way for me in 2 campaigns

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Hmmm, I had the same 25/30 experience. The 30 was my first time around as the Jullii on med/med. The 25 was on my second Roman campaign as the Scipii on hard/hard. Besides the difficulty differences, I noticed that I had taken 5 wonders in the Scipii campaign; maybe they count towards taking a province (I didn't manage to pick up any wonders by the time I hit 30 regions as the Jullii).

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Hmmm, I had the same 25/30 experience. The 30 was my first time around as the Jullii on med/med. The 25 was on my second Roman campaign as the Scipii on hard/hard. Besides the difficulty differences, I noticed that I had taken 5 wonders in the Scipii campaign; maybe they count towards taking a province (I didn't manage to pick up any wonders by the time I hit 30 regions as the Jullii).

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Don't forget the game doesn't count your starting regions in the 'regions captured' scroll, this could go someway to explaining it...

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Originally Posted by sapi

Don't forget the game doesn't count your starting regions in the 'regions captured' scroll, this could go someway to explaining it...

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The Jullii and Scipii both start with two - I think only additional gains count towards the total.

I bribed Segestica/Illyria away from my good allies the Brutii. The Senate ordered my to return the province in 10 years or "the Senate will assign a Quaestor to investigate questional financial dealings" of mine.

I've been making a concerted effort to screw over the Brutii and Scipii. I bribe nearly every army the Brutii send up through my provinces (rather than shipping them across the sea), I allied with Macedon, Dacia, Scythia, and Carthage, and I've refused to take Caralis. Because of this the Greek Cities are about finished by Macedon, setting them up as a decent counter-balance to the Brutii, and Carthage (because I haven't been blockading their ports or taking island cities like Caralis and Palma) are still holding part of Sicily.

I'd prefer to keep ignoring certain Senate missions (including the one to return Segestica to the Brutii) and keep my two rivals weakened, but I'm wondering what's the consequence of this possible financial investigation. Has anyone had this penalty leveled on them yet?

Yep.........i have.To the tune of 15,000 odd denarii.It was rather unpleasant.Some other guy on the forums here said he lost 80,000 after he got investigated.

Ok, I've had FULL senate rating for much of the game now, and since I've conquered my 20-something-th province, my senate rating went down to 1/2 for no reason! The reason the game gave me was because I've gotten too popular w/ the Plebs, yet my popularity is only 1/2! wtf? So i just have to wait to be outlawed? My pleb rating AND senate ratings are low now, and I've completed almost EVERY senate mission! This is illogical. My senate ratings should only drop if either my pleb rating is high OR i fail too many senate missions OR monkey w/ the other Roman factions too much - non of these have happend. I even had a ceasefire w/ the Egyptians before any of the other factions did just because the Senate wanted it in the Senate policies thing("...the war is not going very well..."), are at war w/ all the factions they hate, and allied w/ the ones they like. How to explain this?

You know, to be honest, being loved by the people should NOT have a negative affect on how much the Senate loves you. Your rep with the people should go up based on how much glory you bring to Rome, so how many Heroic Victories you have, how many cities you've captured, how many factions you've destroyed, etc. Your rep with the Senate should go up purely based on how successful you are at completing their missions. The two should not affect each other.

Now, if there were an option to turn down a Consulship for a Tribuneship, I could understand why the Senate might get pissed, as that would be a clear sign of shifting loyalties.

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Originally Posted by Servius1234

You know, to be honest, being loved by the people should NOT have a negative affect on how much the Senate loves you.

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I think the point is that the more popular you are with the people, the more the Senate views you as a possible threat. You would be in a much better position to take over. Obviously the Senate doesn't want this to happen. It seems to make sense that the two relationships would be related.

Bh

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Originally Posted by Servius1234

You know, to be honest, being loved by the people should NOT have a negative affect on how much the Senate loves you. Your rep with the people should go up based on how much glory you bring to Rome, so how many Heroic Victories you have, how many cities you've captured, how many factions you've destroyed, etc. Your rep with the Senate should go up purely based on how successful you are at completing their missions. The two should not affect each other.

Now, if there were an option to turn down a Consulship for a Tribuneship, I could understand why the Senate might get pissed, as that would be a clear sign of shifting loyalties.

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Those Senate guys with happily cheer you along as you increase Rome's territory and do what they say, right up to the point where they realise you are more powerful that they are and they might end up answering to up... Basically they are unhappy that what was supposed to be their puppet has gotten out of hand... And then want to take you down a peg...

You can;t say it is not authentic, it still goes on today... Every boss loves the talented employee right up to the point where said employee starts looking more competent than the boss himself, especially if his boss is taking notice!!! It's human nature to protect your station and privileges...

Then perhaps the Senate should only start getting mad when I have more People bubbles than Senate bubbles.

I see your point, I'm just thinking game mechanics. Since I get no direct support from the people of Rome, their happiness shouldn't really concern me. It's just one city after all. I could just as easily exterminate them upon the sacking as with any other city.

The Senate, on the other hand, does give me some kind of payoff for doing what they want, though as the game progresses their contributions to my faction get relatively smaller and smaller. What's a 1000 dinari when I have over 100K?