Learning stuctures.

What's the purpose of the learning buildings (scriptorium, academy, etc.)? I know what the description says, but I don't see any better leaders coming out of the town by sitting in it with these buildings, even at the highest level. So what purpose do they serve? Do they actually work? Anyone tried any modding to make these buildings more useful?

I'm getting kinda sick of these loser governors with absolutely no useful traits. They usually have no management skills at all. This should improve in cities that have learning centers over time. I'd fix it myself, if I knew how.

It makes it so that characters like a mathematitian philosopher and people of that ilk are added to your governors retinue. At higher levels the academy buildings increase the chance of a famous historical scholar like Archamedes getting stuck in a family members retinue.

EDIT I also think that it precludes characters like the drunken uncle and drinking buddy from showing up in the retinue, characters that the barbarian tarven increase the chances of showing up.

I've noticed that besides improving their retinue, the young governors tend to pick up a few useful traits if left for a few years in cities with learning centers.

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Originally Posted by Slaists

I've noticed that besides improving their retinue, the young governors tend to pick up a few useful traits if left for a few years in cities with learning centers.

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Don't know about that. nothing in the character traits file
export_descr_character_traits.txt to indicate that's true.

In my exp, academies seem to grant one of each type of retinue that they're designed to grant. Then they're "exhausted", and you have to either trash the old academy and build a new one, or build another one in another city. Script adds qutie a few nice retinue (archimedes, some guy with +1 managemetn and +1 command). Ludus adds nothing singificant and is probably not worth the cost.

I'd wager the total effect of an academy is around +2 influence, +2 management and some other less important bonsues. Someone could do some tests and figure this out for certain.

Total effect of a script is probably around +2 infl, +2 command, +2 management. Also some very nice other bonuses (archimedes, for example)

Ludus adds a trivial amount of retinue in my exp. Though I believe I've only built it once.

(Note again taht these are all casual observations. I haven't done a test, but I am fairly attentive to game mechanics in a normal game)

Sure, the scriptorums are nice, but face it -- your daughters will still drag home a bunch of no-influence, snaggle-toothed, unibrowed losers. Those girls just don't know what's good for Rome.

I have only built the Academy in my several games. I never had the time/resources/priority to build higher-level education centers. I also only build one in my capital.

Here is what I found out. Every turn you have a faction member in the town, a random chance occurs (decent chance) for a new retinue member to join up. I have had several join one leader and also spread over the leaders in a town in the same turn. For the Academy, it seems to be (from memory) librarian, mathematician, the doctor guy, the public health guy (also sort of acts like a doctor buy troops have negative morale if his is present), and biographer. I might have missed some. Most these add to management and/or influence.

Since you can move the retinue members from leader to leader, I usually strip my governor of any that show up and move them to other leaders. New faction members usually stay in town for several turns to increase the chance of free retinue, including a priest from the temple. I eventually get a worthless faction member whose job is to move retinue from one leader to another. I do stuff like have two governors move half way between their cities to link up, transfer retinue, and move back home in the same turn.

I also strip retinue from anyone 60 years old if I can. Especially the ones that make units cheaper to buy. Those retinue guys get piled onto the governors of my main recruiting cities.

The structures will significantly improve your generals over time if they sit there long enough (probability). They are fabulous boons to cities you plan to have governed by generals for long periods of time. They aren't worth bothing with in cities where generals will not spend much time.

where do you guys get that gen characteristics are affected by the academy line? there's no indication of this in the data file at all.

Also, the health guy(s) is from the temple. You can get it with as many family members as you have sitting in the city. However, the academy specific retinue seem to occur only once. Usually it takes 1-3 turns for all the retinue to pop up, but once they do, they never appear again -- the academy is "drained" and thus useless.

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Sure, the scriptorums are nice, but face it -- your daughters will still drag home a bunch of no-influence, snaggle-toothed, unibrowed losers. Those girls just don't know what's good for Rome.

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I don't know about your family trees, but in mine, the daughters are annoyingly identical. Not only identical, but identically ugly. Not much chance of bringing home much more than "a bunch of no-influence, snaggle-toothed, unibrowed losers." Having to wait for these hopless waistrels to get married makes having to peddle your little tarts around Europe in MTW look pretty good. Although, I still find that discomforting, at best.

Dorkus, it hasn't been my experience that an academy (or other learning structure) can be used up. I'm with Lichgod - I learned from experience to be sure to have the best library in my capitol, and leave new guys there a turn or three. My impression is that each level of library meant it would add one more to the retinue of non-full generals. In other words a level 2 library would add 2 retinues a turn for any non-full general. In this regard, like Lichgod says, it makes economic sense to have a great library at your cap, and not bother with them anywhere else - if the new guy cools his heels a couple of turns, you've saved yourself immense money elsewhere. I have not noticed them "running out", but then I'm only halfway through my second game... maybe I kept increasing the building as fast as it ran out? And/or maybe the capitol is special in this regard.

These are only my general impressions.

Note that if a (new) general is put in a training queue (to upgrade armor), he won't get any retinue that turn. That's been my impression, too.

I sure wish there was a way to dump useless retinues! And I particularly hate how generals can easily get so full that you can't even swap followers.

~:cheers:

Since in my long Carth campaign, I only built one academy in Carthage as soon as I could, it lasted for at least 50 years (for the rest of the game) filling my faction members with retinues.

RedKnight - to dump usless retinue, you could bribe a no-star faction member off someone, fill him up with unless retinue and use him for ferry missions. I like to have a guy that visits key mercenary locations to raise mercs for me.

Thanks, Lichgod, good idea. But might the guys I bribe be full already, too? :bigcry:

A quick cross-thread note here - In the "Ranked admirals" thread, it was pointed out that learning buildings probably give admirals retinue (and thus stars). So there's a reason to possibly build learning buildings elsewhere besides the capitol, since your fleet might be god knows where.

i always have 1 useless general for filling him with bad retinue and using him to build watchtowers all over the map.
then i just send him to die...

I did a test, and I was wrong. You can get repeat retinue from the same academy. My games simply go too fast for me to recongize it.

What I don't understand, however, is why it seems that you always get a string of 5-6 (low probaility) retinue right whent he building is produced. I think there's still something fishy going on. Every time I take athens, within 2 turns, I get 5 retinue, generally of the low probability variant (from export_descr_ancillaries.txt). Subsequently, it takes years and years to get even one.

I'm thinking there might be a "burst" at the start that subsequently goes down to normal levels. Basing that only on casual observation, however.

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

where do you guys get that gen characteristics are affected by the academy line? there's no indication of this in the data file at all.

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I believe you are right here. There is no indication that the family member himself goes to the academy, unless it is hard-coded.

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

Also, the health guy(s) is from the temple. You can get it with as many family members as you have sitting in the city. However, the academy specific retinue seem to occur only once. Usually it takes 1-3 turns for all the retinue to pop up, but once they do, they never appear again -- the academy is "drained" and thus useless.

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I think you are wrong here. If you put a new guy in, with no ancillary characters, he will acquire them even if others have just got them. I've never had an academy exhausted, and I move retinue characters around religiously.

Edit: Sorry, just saw your post now.

Plus the better the academy, the more advanced characters that are available, i.e. you need a Scriptorium to get the Geographer, and a Ludus Magna to get the Rhetorician.

has anyone else experienced the 'burst'? I tend to use my generals in battle all the time, so I don't get too many academy bred retinue. But i've had reasonable success with recently built academies. If i leave a general in for one turn, it seems that the odds are pretty good that he'll get something. usually quite a few things.

The regions i generally build the academy line in are carthage and athens.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

A quick cross-thread note here - In the "Ranked admirals" thread, it was pointed out that learning buildings probably give admirals retinue (and thus stars). So there's a reason to possibly build learning buildings elsewhere besides the capitol, since your fleet might be god knows where.

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I've noticed this in my current campaign.
Filthy rich and going slow growth on pop so I've been building them when there's nothing much else to build. With Scrips I've been getting a bit more (well, more than none) one and two star admirals.

Hookt un fonix wurkt fur mi giniralz.


Yes those phonicians sure can get you good generals

actually, i figured it out. there are a bunch of unique one-time retinue that occur with high probability (80%). So after sitting my gens for one turn, those are the guys I'm getting.

well, just had this 16 year old who just matured "naked" a turn before earn all these "decorations" in a single turn spent in a city with scriptorium:

Numerius Caepio (16 year old)

TRAITS:
Heartless Ruler
Abstenious
Draughtsman
Fruitful
Sharp
Understanding of Strategy
Gloomy
Bloody
Political Animal

RETINUES:
Archimedes
Quintus Ennius
Appollonius of Rhodes
Geographer
Chirurgeon
Priest of Ceres

Some of the vices were canceling out, but in the end he had command 4, management 4, influence 4. Not bad for a 16 year old...


How is that for a "burst"?

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Originally Posted by Dorkus

actually, i figured it out. there are a bunch of unique one-time retinue that occur with high probability (80%). So after sitting my gens for one turn, those are the guys I'm getting.

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Are these the named people like Archimedes? Or do they also include general characters that are unique per city/limited to one per academy, etc.?

I find the acadamies etc boost management a lot more than anything else
Has anyone else found this?

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Originally Posted by andrewt

Are these the named people like Archimedes? Or do they also include general characters that are unique per city/limited to one per academy, etc.?

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Named people. in the example above of the super 16 year old, the first 3 are unique retinue. There's a list of them in export_descr_ancillaries.txt

here's the first 1 from the list

Trigger trigger_appolonius_of_perge
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
and SettlementBuildingExists >= scriptorium
and IsGeneral
and I_TurnNumber >= 50
and I_TurnNumber

Training ships where there are temples to neptune will give you quite a few good admirals as scipii or if you take a Scipii province with the temple in it.