Mid-tier units have too short a shelf life

I think that mid-tier units who have a stronger version available are in play too little. These are mostly minor city and especially, large city units where there is a better version once you reach huge city. In my Julii game, I mostly used Hastati, Princeps and Equites then jumped to Praetorian cavalry and Urban cohorts. The units in between them saw very little action.

1. In my opinion, population is the major factor. Because population growth is based on a percentage, it takes a longer time to go from level 1 to level 2 (400-2000) and level 2 to level 3 (2000-6000) than it takes to go from level 3 to level 4 (6000-12000) and level 4 to level 5 (12000-24000). It takes a really long time before the level 3 and 4 units are available and by then, the level 5s are nearly available.

2. Training units have more of an effect in the earlier levels than in the later levels. A 16000 city with a 1% population growth training a hastati will actually gain a net of around 80 while a 4000 city with a 2% population growth will just break even. This delays getting to level 2 and 3 more and delays getting to level 5 less.

3. Squalor also plays a part. In the early levels, my priority is income, then military and I can ignore public order. In the later levels, public order comes first, then income if I need it before military.

4. Building length plays a large part as well. At the early levels, I can build military buildings quickly. Once I reach 12000, however, I need to start building public order buildings before military buildings. Because of building lenght, once I'm done with the military buildings, I'm almost at 24000. I plan as best as possible to have my cities stop growing at 24000 so public order buildings are not as necessary since if they haven't revolted by the time I reach 24000, they won't revolt ever.

I'm thinking that lowering the population requirements for the earlier levels will help. If it makes the barbarian factions too powerful, it could be changed to only affect the civilized factions. After all, the most powerful barbarian units are almost as powerful as the most powerful civilized units, anyway.

I've found that i've had no time to build triarii. By the time i could build them my imperial palace was almost built in carthage.

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Originally Posted by The Tuffen

I've found that i've had no time to build triarii. By the time i could build them my imperial palace was almost built in carthage.

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Same for me, and for Pricipes too. As Julii, I just rely on Hastati from the two Ant* cities, one of the two gaelic cities to the north will have a stable before I sack it, so they build Roman Cav, and since Patavium usually grows like crazy they get access to Archers first, and so that's what they build.

Patavium usually has an Imperial Palace before any of the other cities can build Triarii, let alone Principe.

Retraining, while really cool, is also a disincentive to build tier 2 or 3 units because you can't retrain them in the field, you have to send them all the way home to get retrained. And since strat map travel is so much slower in RTW than in MTW (especially by sea) I usually prefer to stay with Hastati all the way till the Marian reforms just becasue I can retrain them relatively quickly after taking almost any city.

Lastly, while historically there were 3 tiers of pre-Marian Roman infantry, there's really no need for it. Principe's are so marginally better than Hastati that they're hardly worth building. Triarii are worth it because they're the first true spearmen I can get, but like I said above, I hardly ever get access to them before they're phased out by Auxilia.

Seems like I saw Jerome mention recently that they're setting a Marian Reforms year-mark in the next patch, so even if you tech up to Auxilia, you won't get them until a certain year. That should take care of the triarii not being used (which I've noticed in my games as well).

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Originally Posted by Tamur

Seems like I saw Jerome mention recently that they're setting a Marian Reforms year-mark in the next patch, so even if you tech up to Auxilia, you won't get them until a certain year. That should take care of the triarii not being used (which I've noticed in my games as well).

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Totally agree with this post and the above quote is most welcome news....

its nice to know there are other triarii lovers out there who would also like to use them for more than 4 turns before they become obsolete.

You might consider getting the Total Realism Mod (2.2). One of the features in it is the Romans get all three pre-Marian units from the beginning but using Early, Middle, Late with stats improving as you upgrade the barracks. I was able to build triarii from day one. Note these units cannot be combined or retrained between Early to Middle to Late.

As for the shelf life, I agree. Mid-level units are not really built as later units arrive so quickly. Even using the TR Mod, I did not get to build any late H/P/T as the Scipii/Brutii triggered the reforms before I had a town that could. I do build peasents to move population around and get towns above 2000 and above 12,000 for the support buildings these levels provide.

I actually prefer to have the Marian reforms be triggered by the player. The problem with mid-level units affects most of the civilized factions, not just the Roman ones. Changing the date of the Marian reforms won't fix this problem. The problem for me is that cities grow too slowly in the beginning and too fast in the end. Maybe adjusting the earlier cities so we can get large city at around 8000 would give a better window for using mid-level units.

I would like it best if ALL you could build was Hastati. After gaining experience they would then BECOME Pricipes and Triarii.

Now THAT would be realistic AND solve this problem.

p.s. In fact I think I will start a new topic about this.

I like the Marian reforms being player triggered, but I wish the trigger was harder to reach. Maybe if it was set to be triggered 20 turns after you hit a population limit in a city, or something. I just don't want a set date limit

Having the Marian reform at a set date won't fix not using the middle units. Triarii will be used more but by the time the Marian reforms come around everyone will have a top level barracks in their infantry producing towns. So once those Marian reforms hit they are now producing urban cohorts instead of the lesser post-marian units.

And really who wants Triarii? I found my Principes just as good against cavalry and better against infantry.

it would be great if lower-tier units were no longer available after a certain period of time once the advanced units appeared.

it would make things less messy and allow the phasing out of obsolete units in time. the us army does not currently recruit, train, and equip soldiers with civil-war era weaponry, but under rtw rules, this would be the case.

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Originally Posted by solypsist

it would be great if lower-tier units were no longer available after a certain period of time once the advanced units appeared.

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The pre marian units are not longer avaible for training or rebuilding after the reforms what what you want appears to already be there...

Perhapes there should be a period (as you suggest) where only the early cohorts are available and then the others added or their name should be changed to "cheap legionaires" or something similar (but cooler)....

I personally go to the trouble of disbanding a pre marian unit when a build a post marian unit in a city as it helps keep the pop figure up...

I never disbanded any of my pre-Marian units. I sent them to start conquering Iberia then Numidia and fight the Scipii in North Africa. I started with around 2 stacks and ended with around one when I started conquering Sicily with them. I just bolstered their numbers with a lot of mercs.

Anyway, I just started my third campaign now and this affects some of the non-Romans as well. The Parthians weren't really affected by it, though, as their units are mostly unique and don't have a progression like the Roman ones. Looking at the unit lineups, I think the Greeks and Macedonians would be greatly affected by this as their units also have a progression.

I got the marian reforms in like 245 BC or something similarly early. Carthage isn't even dead yet and I can start cranking out legionary cohorts?

This seemed like a silly plan and since I hadn't even started producing principes instead of hastati (let alone triari) I went in and modified the buildings file and removed the "and not marian reforms" clause from all the pre marian roman units. I'll just keep using those until the marian reforms should actually arrive. The other roman factions are welcome to use legionary cohorts they can use all the help they can get. (Of course, I *do* seem to be sending some of my surplus cash to their enemies but that's another matter)