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My friend (and co-author at the Archives site) C West,and I came across a very interesting article in Gakken's 'Sengoku Kassen Taizen' vol.1 (Rekishi Gunzo #50) regarding the famous 4th Battle of Kawanakajima. This piece discusses some questions that surround the battle - and presents a compelling case that the traditional view of the battle may well be inaccurate.
Four main points are made.
1. A month after the battle, Shingen reported killing 3,000 Uesugi troops and claimed victory. Three days after the battle, Kenshin's battle citations cite that several thousand mounted Takeda troops were slain. Both claim victory - this much is well known, but is of relevance to the arguement as a whole.
2. After the battle, Shingen presented 2 of his generals with special citations for bravery, while Kenshin presented 7 citations. Compared to other battles the two fought in, these numbers are extremely low. To quote the article, '... if you were to look only at the number of citations, it would be impossible to think of the 4th Battle of Kawanakajima as a large battle.'
3. Within two months of the conclusion of the battle, Shingen moved into Kozuke and attacked at least two castles. For his part, Kenshin was already back to fighting the Hojo in Musashi just a month or so after 4th Kawanakajima. The author makes the very valid point that if the battle was as bloody and damaging as is normally assumed (with thousands of killed and thousands of wounded), then it seems very odd that within two months both armies were back in action with little to no apparent diminishment of their power.
4. The author spends the most time arguing that Kenshin's position on Saijoyama is rather implausible. For one thing, there are 2 other mountains in that area named 'Saijo' (with different kanji). The author presents various arguements that call into question the probability of Kenshin assuming a position on the Saijo mountain he did (or is said to have), including the proximity of Takeda forts to Kenshin's generally assumed path of advance. Among the other points is the fact that Uesugi Kagekatsu actually did take up a position on Saijo during a later stand-off with the Hojo family at Kawanakajima, leading some historians to suggest that early Edo Period writers confused the two battles.
The article concludes by saying that it may be assumed with some degree of certainty that the losses at the 4th Battle of Kawanakajima were not as great as they are said to have been - and certainly nowhere near 72% (the figure often given for the Uesugi side).
At any rate, I found the article very interesting.
[This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 03-28-2001).]
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thanks for sharing that seal-dono
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wow...
any other cool info Seal regarding this battle/find or other battles...??
also, if you have a scanner, is there anyway you could scan the article on your website without breaking copyright laws??
thanks for the info Seal.
-Zen Blade
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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
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I've been reading a book on the WW2 Battle of Midway, and here are some interesting things:
1. Gamers at the Naval Academy in Rhode Island have simulated the battle for years, and have never been able to pull out an American victory. (fyi, the Americans won the real-life battle)
2. It was the biggest upset for Japanese naval power since thier Korean invasion debacle 3.5 centuries earlier.
It has nothing to do with the Kawanakajima, but someone called for other battles, so I figured I'd mention it.
[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 03-28-2001).]
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Solypsist-sama: Not that the Japanese Navy saw much action between those two events. They were spectacularly successful in the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), and were initially able to beat up the British / ANZAC Pacific navies pretty badly, but their 17th, 18th and 19th centuries are all a blank slate...
Also, I've neglected it many times, but I have to say it now: Thank you, Seal-Kô, for continuing your selfless work of enlightening us with these posts. They're one of the primary reasons I still read this forum, and worth many history books. Domô arigatô gozaimas.
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"Si j'étais né en 17 à Leidenstadt / Sur les ruines d'un champ de bataille / Aurais-je été meilleur ou pire que ces gens / Si j'avais été Allemand?"
- Jean-Jacques Goldman: Né en 17 à Leidenstadt
