Wedge Formation and is it any real use?

I cannot see any point at all for the wedge formation, it doesn't split up enemy formations in my experience all it does is weaken the initial charge shock impact and get my lead horses killed and so I don't use it anymore. I had the same experience in MTW but had thought it would somehow be more effective in RTW.

If I'm not taking something into account could someone fill me in?, far as I can see the formation is pointless in the face of one being better off just lining up ones cavalry in lines and charging them across a strong but broad front.

Oh yeah :charge: ..I just wanted to use that smilie ~D

I've seen wedges charge right through an enemy unit (though usually a routing one) and then comes around for another charge, while a line charges once and then gets caught in melee.

I use a line a lot more often, though -- much better for chasing when the opposition routs. I normally use wedges for squeezing through some gap that appear. For instance, if there's a big brawl around an enemy general, I'll sometimes form a wedge and ride around. A wedge is less likely to get hung up in melee combat while trying to ride around units or through a gap.

Well I use wedge when charging the enemy in the rear. I find that it tends to increase the attack a nice bit and will cause the enemy unit to rout faster.
But I never use wedge in frontal combat. :bow:

I've gotten the impression the wedge might have an advantage if it meets another cavalry unit in wider, thinner formation head on - it seems to tend to smash through and disorder the other unit. But on the other hand it might just be that I always try to ensure my troops are better than the AIs...

I don't use wedge.

I'd rather get a full impact of cavalry charging into the enemy and my charges are usually never to split up the unit, it's always to kill it. Historically you'd charge into the middle of the enemy ranks and split them up, knock them down, and have infantry or other cav to mop up the breach to allow to widen it. That's pretty devastating. Not so much when you split one small unit of maybe 100 men as the untis in battle don't have a very big "part of the army" mentality.

I wonder if wedge would be ideal for hitting a flank directly. You would be hitting only 4 men.

But I have really been wondering about the effectiveness of wedge. I am not sure it is worth it.

My experience is, sometimes it works well, others, it just plain sucks & suicides the leading horses/men. So I typically just use the full charge broad front, it impacts more head on enemy casulties, and makes them rout faster.

As some of the others have started, I do not charge to break up their lines, I charge to kill them. When they rout, I keep the attack until it wont let me attack anymore, mowing down their retreaters as much as I possibly can, because if you dont, you'll just be seeing them on another battlefield, so kill them while you have the oppertunity.

I dont use it!

I have witnessed the AI using wedge formation multiple times when attacking my cavalry.It might give an advantage when charging cavalry.Lets make a series of tests in cavalry vs cavalry and cavalry vs infantry.

I always tend to use wedge in the first charge then pull back and continue charging in normal formation.

Although I haven't done exhaustive testing on it, I've found that the wedge is must less cohesive than in MTW. This is especially true when turning or reacting to a moving target. The front men in the wedge veer into the target properly, but the later reaction from the rear units sometimes causes the wedge to be skewed and much less effective. In the few times I've used it, I've found the wedge to work best when the wedged unit can make a straight lined attack to the intended target. A fast or erratic moving target means more turns to meet the target, and more loss of wedge cohesion.

I have also seen the wedge work beautifully, and cleave through foot units.

I dont use it
I experimented with it in the past and all its gotten me is a weak charge with a killed charge leader. This is extremely annoying when you use your general to charge and he gets caught in the middle of the infantry that you just flanked and is killed.

The wedge is best used obliquely to the main battle line, or in the flank or rear (see alexander's use of the companion cavalry). Using a line formation with cavalry will quickly get them involved in prolonged melees with larger units. If they happen to have the stats to handle this, then so much the better, but otherwise, they should be kept concentrated and on the move at all times.

I find that the wedge is generally best when used on the flank, as others have said, however, it seems to be that using a broad front flanked by two wedges may mix the specialties of each. Though this may not be true, it does definately look cool! I agree that broad front attacks are more all purpose, but I think the wedge has some advantage in ripping open an enemy unit. :charge:

Ok grassy flatland, normal weather and no upgrades.Large unit size.

1)equites vs equites

*In wedge formation my equites won with 27 horses left standing.

*In normal formation the fight was evenly matched as it should be, sometimes i won sometimes AI won.

Conclusion : wedge formation does help when engaging cavalry


2)equites vs hastati

In these battles i kept pulling back and repeated charging to see the full effect of eich formation.
*In wedge the equites won with 3 horses left standing, the first charge didend make much casualties and it looked like the unit was stuck for a moment but after pulling back the second charge was devastating.Overall it could have gone either way so u could say it was evenly matched.

*In normal formation the equites never really managed to break through the hastati lines, in the first charge the hastati took some casualties but they always seemed to hold the lines causing the equites to get stuck eich time they rushed in.Usually after the third charge my equites usually routed.50 men left standing on the hastati side.

Conclusion: wedge formation wins again


3)barbarian cavalry vs hastati

Just to make sure i runned a series of tests with barb cavalry to back up the other results.

*In both wedge and default formation the barb cavalry lost ofcourse but in wedge the hastati had only 22 men left standing.
In default formation the hastati had 53 men left standing.

overall conclusion:
Wedge formation seems to have better results vs both infantry and cavalry in frontal charges.
Versus infantry the first charge with wedge issent effective cause it kinda gets stuck, pull back and recharge and u will see that the second wave will make loads casualties on the infantry side.

Default formation is best used when attacking flanks or rear cause it will instantly make casualties on the first charge.I am not sure if wedge would be effective in flanks or rear, if it gets stuck like it does when charging the front then it will certainly miss its shock effect.

When using wedge formation in a frontal charge, I've often wondered if it would be better to have the point of the wedge hit the seam between two units or to have it strike the center of one unit. I'm thinking that as you push into the seam between units, you'll be hitting the flanks of both, and this would be better than just hitting one unit head-on. Anyone know? I might have to run some tests and check this out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agravain of Orkney

When using wedge formation in a frontal charge, I've often wondered if it would be better to have the point of the wedge hit the seam between two units or to have it strike the center of one unit. I'm thinking that as you push into the seam between units, you'll be hitting the flanks of both, and this would be better than just hitting one unit head-on. Anyone know? I might have to run some tests and check this out.

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I think your cavalry will be sandwiched between the 2 infantry units.

Interesting finds, Jeanne d'arc. I may have to adjust my tactics.

IIRC in MTW wedge provided a 2x increase in kill rate (both for and against.) So it should confer an advantage to the charge, because the charge bonus will be applied twice as often in the same period of time. Don't know about RTW, but Jeanne d'crc's results seem to bear out this sort of effect.

I admit I rarely use wedge in either game, but it was an "accelerant" in MTW. If you knew the match up was favourable, and you wanted to get the unit onto its next objective quickly, wedge could help.

It is useful for Cav vs Cav, but in most other situations you are better off using a wide frontage in my experience.

On one of the Time Commanders episodes they said Alexander the great would use the wedge to charge in between 2 units. This would cause a breach in the enemy line and infantry following up could exploit this breach

I use wedge on cavalry charges. Never thought of why actually. I guess I just like to give orders..... :blushing:

Also it seems the wedge formation has the tendency to drift to the left when charging, this means the point of the wedge doesent hit the center first.Perhaps this is indeed done to open up gaps between units like oaty stated.

Is there any actual stat advantage given by charge?,. for instance the already mentioned charge bonus for MTW (although I can't say I ever noticed it:surprised: )

I don't know Jean, everytime I've used the wedge in pitched battle my cavalry has been chewed up and the targeted unit has suffered little damage, granted I haven't really tested it against enemy cavalry (I will now) but against infantry it just leads to waste and ineffectiveness I've found.

I like to kill the enemy formation by panicking it, once its routed its easy to completely wipe out, that means maximum casualties as fast as possible such as in a sudden impact along a broad front (usually three lines), even better if the unit is engaged by infantry at the front and I'm hitting it from a flank or rear with my cavalry (standard stuff).

The charge bonuses are rather large for some units in RTW. Greek lancers get a +15 charge bonus ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek: Round shield cav only get a +2 charge bonus. You probably wouldn't want to use wedge for frontal attack with cav unless you have a substantial charge bonus or heavily outmatch the other unit, because you will take casualties at an accelerated rate as well (I believe.) You might charge, then enter melee to hold them, while another unit charges into their flank or rear (with wedge if you like) and rapidly routs them.

Countercharges are imperative for many units. You stand a good chance of negating a charge by countercharging. Caesar said that it was best to countercharge to bolster the men's morale, rather than stand there and take the charge. RTW seems to be designed with this in mind.

I have done wedge with my greek cavalry a few times, and i've never used it again. Why? Because half the unit dies in a matter of seconds. I prefer to just put the cavalry in a line and have it smash into the rear of the enemy.

wedge is useless as it is...

but I do use a wedge formation with a pure caval army of at least 9 units
1 front center 3 behind 5 last row, forming a wedge while in square formation.

Effect on impact:
1. unit hits and gets stuck in melee , 2. row hit same thing, 3rd row hit ...the unit/units engaged by 1. row tends to break when the 3rd row hit.

It work very well with gothic caval or legionary, I would not do this with light cavalry tho.

Final effect is: broken center of enemy army- exposed general in rear- dead general unit- 50% of enemy runs befor you loose 20% of your troops.

P.S. dont ever try that on phalanx-formations.................

HEY cavalry charges can work on phalanxes, what you need to do is find a way to break up the phalanx a little, and use very heavy cavalry I use Companions or Cataphracts as Seluecids, charge front and you will lose around half or more of the unit but the phalanx will be broken and you can mop up. I suggest this is onlyu used in last ditch climactic all or nothing battles, because charging with infantry and then cavalry in the rear works much better. :charge: