Roman Armies: Very Early, Etruscan/Servian, "Polybian"

I've been considering the idea of modding a bit to create an RTW campaign somewhere in the 4th century (late 300's probably about the same time as Alexander's death and during the middle of the 2nd Samnite War.). Not quite sure how it would work since the normal Roman factions would need to be tiny or non-existent. New factions would be a Latin League/Etruscans and Samnites. This would actually feature quite different unit types for Rome. So the topic here is to encourage those who have familiarity with early Roman armies to discuss what they would resemble. My primary reference is: "Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World" combined with Goldsworthy's "The Punic Wars" and "The Complete Roman Army." (Several websites, etc. also give me some ideas...although there sources are rarely clear.)

Earliest Roman Armies, prior to 600 B.C.:
Early pre-Etruscan Roman armies were apparently sword based Celtic influenced followers of Mars with warrior elite. Some bronze spear heads have been found so there were spears as well. I suppose the armour found in archaelogical digs would primarily be from the warrior elite followers of Mars: Bronze pot shaped helmets; bronze pectoral armour plates and sometimes an abdomenal plate hanging from leather strips below the pectoral plates; large round shields and/or oval ancile.

Servian Army:
The Etruscans conquered Rome around 600 B.C using hoplite armies. The 2nd Etruscan king of Rome, Servius Tullus, organized the army as follows with the wealthiest at the top, poorest at the bottom:

80 centuries of hoplites with full hoplite armour (hoplon, body armour, greaves) and weapons
20 centuries of lighter hoplites lacking body armour and using oval long shields
20 centuries of similar troops, but also lacking greaves
20 centuries of javelinmen
30 centuries of slingers
(Assumptions are made in the text about cavalry as well to come up with an army of ~14,400)

This would be the army for Rome to start with, and would not be upgraded until Rome conquered the Samnites. Or possibly it would not exist in the ~320 B.C. time frame...although the setbacks in the Samnite wars suggest the Romans were still hoplite based...I've seen it stated both ways.

4th Century B.C. Roman Army up to end of 1st Punic War:
The Gauls put the mojo on the Romans in 390 B.C. and sacked the city. That and and the setbacks of the 2nd Samnite war starting in 327 B.C. led to dispensing with the hoplite phalanx system. This new system was probably used vs. Pyrrhus, and also the one that was probably available up until the end of the 1st Punic War.

15 maniples of hastati spearmen (~first 1/4 of them had spear and javelin, while the rear 3/4 had spear and oblong shield)
15 maniples of principes all carrying oblong shields and "especially fine arms" (--probably swords.) Stronger and more mature men.
15 maniples (companies) each subdivided into three sections of
--triarii (vets of proven courage). Spear armed with shields.
--rorarii (young and inexperienced, perhaps a bit impetuous.)
--and accensii (the least reliable.)

It appears there were separate skirmishers and cav (reading about the fighting at Heraclea in 280 B.C.)

Polybian Legion:
I'm not going to go into detail with this, because it is well described in many places. However, I do suspect that these legions might not have been present for the 1st Punic war (don't know...would be interested to get info suggesting either way.) Another thing is that the swords they used were probably considerably different than the gladius up until the mid way through the 2nd Punic War. That was when Scipio Africanus re-equipped his legions with Spanish made/patterned gladius of higher quality iron and craftsmanship.

great idee i would help but i cant mod(noob) and i know little of the early very early of the roman empire

Well you know I don't agree with you concerning the first manipular Hastati and Principes. But in general I would remove the armour of the Hastati and downgrade the Principes and Triarii. The Velites should look like Peltasts without the shield (indeed, it was only with Scipio Africanus they became the effective force he used, previously they got they rear handed to them time and again).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraxis

Well you know I don't agree with you concerning the first manipular Hastati and Principes. But in general I would remove the armour of the Hastati and downgrade the Principes and Triarii. The Velites should look like Peltasts without the shield (indeed, it was only with Scipio Africanus they became the effective force he used, previously they got they rear handed to them time and again).

---

Yes, I think cutting back on the armour makes sense as well, leaving perhaps a helmet for the Hastati--although maybe some sort of simple pectoral plates for some and very minor armour rating since some might have had the means to buy a little more protection. The velites being unshielded certainly fits with the account of the mixed shielded/unshielded hastati description. If there were some unshielded hastati, I can't imagine the velites would have shields.

Enjoyed the discussion in the other thread about the Hastati/Prinicipes. Obviously, RTW is not set up to build the "mixed" hastati unit with some men with shields and spear and some without shield but with jav or pila with spear. I'm not even sure that there is a skeleton for the combined jav/spear unit. So it might be easier to leave them with swords (weaker earlier form), and perhaps a lower power pila/stronger jav, and reduced armour, and different shield (appearance, and perhaps a 4 rating rather than 5.) I've never tried making one of the graphical mods...just stat adjustment so this is a whole new ballgame.

And the principes could be done both ways...one with sword...one with spear. From the other thread it sounded as if you were coming to the idea of hoplite or kopis sword armed Principes? or do you think they had the spear (probably meaning with hoplite sword also but spear primary?)

Do you have any conjecture about the composition of the Samnite armies and how the duplex acies looked? I'm thinking of something like javelin skirmishers, then some sort of light infantry for the first line of maniples (perhaps modeled on shield plus jav hastati with short swords), with a heavier spear infantry for the 2nd line of maniples much like the Samnites mercs in RTW and in the Osprey illustration in "Armies of the Carthaginian Wars.") I suppose they would have some sort of light Oscan cavalry. Livy mentions a Samnite general's cavalry flinging missiles (javelins?) at the Roman commander who had just slain him. Campanian cavalry did well against equites in various later conflicts if memory serves.

Livy has this interesting explanation of Samnite weapons at end of the 2nd Samnite war: "In addition to their usual preparations for war, they had new glittering armour made in which their troops were quite resplendent. There were two divisions; one had their shields plated with gold, the other with silver. The shield was made straight and broad at the top to cover the chest and shoulders, then became narrower towards the bottom to allow of it being more easily moved about. To protect the front of the body they wore coats of chain armour; the left leg was covered with a greave, and their helmets were plumed to give them the appearance of being taller than they really were. The tunics of the men with gold plated shields were in variegated colours, those with the silver shields had tunics of white linen. The latter were assigned to the right wing, the former were posted on the left." Doubting the plating of the shields, but the shield shape and armour descriptions are interesting and useful.

Do NOT trust Livy.

No I don't trust Livy, LOL. Reading his Roman cheerleading is tedious. It's amazing those Samnites held out so long after losing 30,000 men in every fight... ~:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :dizzy2: ~D So I'm digging around for kernels of truth inside the historical fiction. Unfortunately, there isn't much else available.

Regarding the look of the Hastati, perhaps you should take a look at the Osprey Men-at-arms Early Roman Troops (or something to that meaning). The last part of it is dedicated to the troops around the time of Pyrrhus. There is a quite good image of Hastati wavering in front of elephants (one is already fleeing while the other are broken up but determined to fight). They are all clad in white with a helmet (so keep that one) but have neither greaves nor pectoral plates (perhaps that should be given to Principes, and then have a sort of upgraded Principes that is closer to the one we have now, same can be done with Hastati). And that fits the image I have of the Samnite first line troops, which they are meant (at least to me) to imitate.
Perhaps the legionaries could be granted a Samnite or Celtic shield (either curved trapez or flat oval), the shields that would be the most likely candidates for the first manipular troops (again the upgrade could give them the familiar curved oval shield).

The Samnite dual-ascies I believe is much like the Roman triplex. Holes in the lines, perfect for breaking up hoplite armies, or to fill up if faced with more cenventional swordsmen.
First would be the obvious skirmishers.
The initial troops, the Samnite 'Hastati', would be the faster and fitter with no armour but with the Saminte trapez-shield and a clutch of javelins as well as a sword/large dagger. These would rush and do the first real fighting, hoping to catch the enemy of guard (which it seems they did to the Romans now and then), if not then they would let the 'Samnite Mercenaries' take over. Yes I believe the second line is very much like the unit in RTW, just give them greaves (or one) and maybe a short chain cuirass, just to make them appear more heavy, while the triple disc plate is much more accurate.

This is very flexible on the field and quite suited for fighting in rugged terrain, so it is understandable that the Romans copied it, rather than the more uncontrolled fury of the Celts (despite the more devastating defeats they suffered to them). Then they made advances on it, for the Samnites had no reserve (I do not count the second line as a reserve) to cover any retreat, as Roman victories showed could be very costly.
While I agree that Livy is no good for real historical accuracy, he is most certainly colourful, and the silver and gold troops could be a good way to create the two lines. Silver for the Samnite 'Hastati' and gold for the 'mercs'.
No idea about Samnite cavalry, I only know that they were quite good and gave the Romans hell almost every time.

The Principes would indeed be spearmen with swords, but in RTW that means they are hoplites, which they weren't. They were spearmen with swords for infighting. They fought more individually with the spears, the spears were after all the most common weapon, and quite possibly the most effective. Only later was it understood that the Hastati were quite capable in even serious battles, and that was perhaps because of the way they were equipped, and so the Principes threw away their spears and took up heavy javelins (maybe the pilum?).
But the swords would have been basically anything they could get their hands on, so hopliteswords of the leaftype would be the most logical, which unfortunately will be just another short straight sword so no change in the game there. But kopis-type swords are not outside the possibility and makes for a much more interesting change if possible.
I'm certain that I have seen both Roman and Etruscan weighted swords (kopis) of the earlier hoplite period. It could be it was never common, or that it simply fell out of use.

Great site for the Samnites:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/davmonac/sanniti/

Good arch. evidence


Cheers
OA

That is true enough... But it is all in italian, so it is purely looking at pictures for me (well I can quite easily understand the meaning of captions and some of the heads of pages, especially those concerning the three Samnite wars).

I found on the page called 'LE GUERRE SANNITICHE' is a sword on the top right. That would be close to the Roman sword of the time (it also fits with the timeperiod of somewhere in the late 4th century BC), while the sword itself might be Samnite.
On a previous page there is an image where the Samnites are gathering for war, it is obviously an Osprey image, but one of the Samnites is throwing a javelin and I suspect he is one of the Samnite 'Hastati'.

Well I could give some info as I can speak and write italian like a native - wait well I'm a native, although a special one :book:

In any case some of it is also avaiable in english, by clicking on the british flag on the bottom....

Very interesting topic, but I must focus on the EB first, were I could help very little due to the small amount of spare time.

Anyway some hints for the celtic enemys of Rome:

Later Boii or Senonii warrior:
Two pila, thueros, longsword, bronze helm celto-italic style;
Wealthy ones would also wear mail.

Cheers
OA

Thanks for the link. I've never had any Italian instruction so it is slow going, but there is so much shared with french and/or spanish that it isn't too bad.

There are some really good maps on the site as well.

In a couple of places I've noticed that small hand axes (more like a hatchet) have been found, and one is illustrated in use on that 4th century Capuan vase. Looks like it was sometimes used as secondary to the spear--the axe, not the vase...

Well yes, the Romans even had a symbolic axe for the victory parades.
I think it comes from the time prior to the hoplite era.