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Trade Research from Quietus' Quick Economics Guide
Rome: Total War – A Quick Economics Guide & Primer
(Attention Moderators: a request to post this guide to RTW Guide section, thx – Quietus).
This economics guide is meant for every RTW user. A Julii, Very Hard/Very Hard campaign, unpatched, was used as a standard. Results may vary due to this. This is based on my personal tests, unless stated otherwise. See Notes below for any additional info. This is also meant to complement my Quick Strategic Map Guide & Primer.
Index:
I. Introduction
II. Maintenance
III. Taxation
IV. Farms
V. Trade
VI. Mining
VII. Misc. Factors (Rebels, Governors, Trade Rights etc...)
I. Introduction:
There are four sources of continuous income in RTW: Farms, Trade, Taxes and Mining. Each will be collected for every turn. However, for each turn you may also lose denari to Corruption, Entertainment buildings, Governor, Agent wages and Military upkeep.
II. Maintenance:costs and upkeep.
Wages & Military Upkeep –Wages and Upkeep is based on your settlement population ratio vs. the total population.
Example:
Settlement A has 10% of the total population, then
Settlement A pays 10% of aggregate governor wages, and
Settlement A pays 10% of total agent wages, also
Settlement A pays 10% of total army upkeep
Entertainment buildings –gladiatorial games and races can be staged Yearly, Monthly, or Daily. Only the base yearly games differ in happiness effect (Arena = +5%; Amphitheater = +10%; Coliseum = 15% base happiness effect).
Yearly Games– No upkeep will be incurred to you. Effect = +5% public order (aside from base).
Monthly Games – 400 denari per turn upkeep. Effect = +20% public order (aside from base).
Daily Games – 400 denari per turn upkeep. Effect = +30% public order (aside from base).
III. Taxation:
Taxation – Taxation isn’t based on the same settlement-to-total population ratio. However, it is still based some how on population. I have two test provinces with the same population and the same taxes, but the equation for this relationship is nary obvious. More tests and numbers crunching are needed.
IV. Farming
Farming Income –Farming income is based on farming levels, eg Land clearance, Communal farming, Crop rotation, Irrigation, Latifundia. It is also based on the Fertility of the soil (High, Medium, and Low) and Harvest (Poor to Excellent)
Level 0 (Base farming value)
Level 1 ( Land clearance) – (% increase to be tested)
Level 2 ( Communal farming) – (% increase to be tested)
Level 3 (Crop rotation) – (% increase to be tested)
Level 4 (Irrigation) – (% increase to be tested)
Level 5 (Latifundia) - (% increase to be tested)
Devastation –is deducted based on damaged farming area (tile). Each tile damaged is equal to 10% of farming income. Thus, the more tiles damaged the more income is deducted. Devastation is caused by enemy armies sitting on a tile for at least 2 turns. More tests are need to quantify how long they last and peripheral tile damages incurred after more than 2 turns devastation.
Example:
Settlement A farming income = 100 denari
Devastation Value = 40 denari
Base Devastation Value = 10% of 100 = 10 denari
Tiles devastated = 40 denari/10 denari = 4
V. Trade:
Trading Income –Trading income is divided into three parts: Land Export/Import, Sea Imports and Sea Exports. They are affected by different factors such as number of natural resources, trade buildings, road types, port type, governor traits and retinues, blockades, and rebels sitting along your routes.
Land Export/Import –It is lumped into one inseparable income. Thus it is difficult to harness specific equations for this.
Roads –Roads ONLY affect the land trade of the settlement from where it originated. Roads neither affect Sea Exports or Imports.
No roads: base land trade income
Road: There appear to be no discernable change to trade income.
Paved Roads: 100% land trade income boost from Road in originating city only.
Highways: 50% land trade boost from Paved Road in originating city only. In my test, only 3 of 5 got the increase, the two lowest values didn’t increase. There maybe a) a distance limit how far a highway upgrade is effective (the two farthers didn’t get a boost) or b) only a fraction of the land trades get a boost (3 of the 5 were the highest values). Neither sea exports nor imports were affected by the upgrade. Currently, I’m leaning towards choice a).
Sea Trade –Sea trade is divided into 2 parts: Sea Exports and Sea Imports.
Sea Imports – Sea import income is ALWAYS 20% of the exporter income.
Example:
Settlement A has a 100 denari export income for exporting to Settlement B;
Settlement B gets 20 denari Sea Import income as a result.
This is regardless of roads, trade buildings, ports, governors or any other factors that are involved in the trade. There can be possible limits to this relationship (see Sea Import Routes).
Sea Exports –The exact equation to figure out its value is still unknown. However, they are obviously affected by trade buildings.
Ports – The types of port can affect your Sea Export income, not Sea Importation income. Each port corresponds to a number of routes. Each route correspond to a provinces involved in a trade.
Port: 1 Trade route
Shipwright: 2 Trade routes
Dockyard: 3 Trade routes.
Sea Exports Routes – You can see them by which directions the trade ships are moving. Trades are automatically picked by the computer, depending how many export routes are available.
Sea Import Routes – You can see them by which directions the trade ships are moving. There are instances that Sea Import income isn’t being reported, despite a Sea Export to that settlement is being reported in another town. Thus, there may be some cap that limits how much can be imported by a town. Unlike, sea exports where the number of routes are determined by port type, this is not so in sea imports. More tests will be needed.
Trade Buildings – You need to progressively build them to increase trade. There will be a base trade value even without a trader.
In lower values, it is hard to pinpoint a good narrow range due to unexplained fluctuations when doing tests on small incomes (see Trade Fluctuations). Every turn, while building, I check all the individual trade incomes of the test settlements. A tiny, 1 denari fluctuations can actually alter a good percentage when testing for Level 1 & 2 upgrades since not all incomes concurrently fluctuate. Thus, so far, these are the values I come up with using Roman trade buildings:
Level 0 (Base trade value)
Level 1 (Trader) – Land based trades increase by 6.9%-10%. (see Trade Fluctuations)
Level 2 (Market) – Land based trades increase by 8.8%-11.5%. (see Trade Fluctuations)
Level 3 (Forum) – Land based trades get a ~ 8.2% increase from Market.
Level 4 (Great Forum) – To be tested soon.
Level 5 (Curia) – To be tested soon.
The changes in sea exports income vary as well. Thus, I leave that to future tests. They definitely do increase sea exports but whether they get the exact % increase as land trade counterparts is still up in the air.
VI. Mining:
Mining –mining is lucrative in that you can earn from these twice: a) from the mining gold or silver itself and b) from trading the silver or gold that is being mined.
Silver Mine = 200 denari per turn.
Silver Mine +1 = 350 denari per turn.
Gold Mine = 300 denari per turn.
Gold Mine +1 = 525 denari per turn.
Mining +1 increases mining income by an additional 75%. Mining upgrade does not increase trade in any way. You can get governor traits that increase mining income.
VII. Miscellaneous Factors:there are other factors that affect your general income.
Rebels/Bandits – Rebels will frequently pop-up in your territory along your trade routes. They affect trades in two ways:
1) They reduce land trade of the affected route by 1/3 or ½ . From my observations, 50% is deducted if the rebels are very close to the settlement. Only 33.3% is deducted if they are not close to the settlement. Rebels must be sitting atop a road to affect the land trade.
2) They reduce Sea Exports by 1/3 or 33.3%. Unlike land trades, Rebels do not have to be on the road to affect income; they simply have to be in the territory of the province.
Governors – Governors affect trade income by virtue of retinues or traits. The effect can be negative or positive. A list will come soon.
Trade Rights – trade rights increase Sea Export income by 100% when trading with the particular faction. Your trading partner will also get a 100% Sea Export increase which translate to a corresponding Sea Import increase to you (since Sea Import = 20%Sea Export; see Sea Imports). Land trade increases by 3 fold (300%). It is possible that different variables can change this percentage. Also, cancellation of trade rights will cut both parties' sea export by 50% back to the old values.
Corruption – is the leading income cutter in the game. This is due to the fact that it is omniscient with relation to increasing distance to capital. Our friend, therother, managed to derive an equation that relates distance-to-capital and %corruption-vs-income by virtue of a linear fit graph. How he managed to calculate the distances by tiles, I do not know (but we can thank him for that). To get to the point, the most important idea to remember is the farther you move away from your capital, the higher your percentage of corruption is relative to your income for that settlement. He did, however, mentioned a grace distance where no corruption is present (and you can observed this where your Capital’s neighbor doesn’t show any corruption penalties). Lastly, Law buildings do reduce corruption penalties (thx to Soulflame for this idea, I believe). Via tests, their canceling effect appears to be 1:1 linear to that of corruption, thus 10% law will knock off 10% corruption.
Academies –Academies can bestow your Governor retinues or traits that factor in your income. Lists of retinues and traits will be forthcoming.
Trade Fluctuations – There is an inherent, unavoidable phenomenon in RTW where trade incomes can rise by increments of 1 denari for no reason at all. I suspect, every time the computer calculates a trade value, it gets rounded up. Not every values rise simultaneously though and in rare occasions, trade actually diminishes by 1 denari. In other rare occasions, it can rise by 2 denari for no visible reason at all.
Blockades – because the AI never seem to blockade ports it is difficult to assess. I may have to buy a port that is being blockade to find out. I will look for an appropriate situation.
( Author’s Note: this economic guide is obviously, by a large part, still work-in-progress. I’ve made numerous attempts on to decipher how trades are being calculated outright, but since there are no base trade values attached to each commodity/resources it is very difficult. The way they are clumped together doesn’t help either. Like the Gauls, RTW Economics is “mad and hairy beyond reason”.
If any readers do find any errors or inconsistencies, please point it out. It helps very much! That is all for now, and I’ll be doing more tests as soon as I’m able. Hope you enjoy and find some use for this – Quietus).
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Looks good Quietus
A couple of very, very quick notes, after skimming the article at ridiculous speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
but since there are no base trade values attached to each commodity/resources it is very difficult.
You can find these in descr_sm_resources.txt.
The population of a city affects trade income.
There are a few other things that you say that I think may be inaccurate, but I'm not sure of my facts. If I find the time I'll check and report back.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
1. Farm income rises by 80 per upgrade. I think poor harvest is a 10% penalty. I'm not sure of the bonus for good and excellent harvest.
2. 2 cities can export the same resource to a city. While both of those 2 cities get export income, the city being exported to gets import income from only one of them.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Isn't the base farm values located in World/maps/base/desc_regions.txt?
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
A few slightly more detailed comments:
You might want to mention expenditures like Family member wages (200 each I think, 300 for the Faction Leader), devastation, diplomatic tributes in your opening list. You might also want to mention one time incomes/expenditures, like Senate fines or selling map information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
I have two test provinces with the same population and the same taxes, but the equation for this relationship is nary obvious.
You have two settlements with the same population, no Governors, same tax rate, same difficulty level, but have different tax incomes? I've never seen this in my games. Would you mind making the game available to me? I thought I had tax income pretty much solved. Ho hum.
Trade
In my games the increase due to paved roads is 100%. It's 50% for Highways. For increases in neighbouring settlements, it usually depends on the relative quality of their roads, from my limited experience.
Sea Exports/Imports - It's been my general observation, as yet unconfirmed, that your trading routes depend on a number of factors. Geography is one: you only seem to sea trade within a certain locality. Selection of routes is based on profitability of the route. The game automatically chooses the best route for trading. It takes into account trade agreements, and is strongly dependent on both the goods that you can trade to a settlement (i.e. if a target settlement has that resource as well, it will not be traded), and the populations of the two settlements.
Basically, the more populated the market is, the more money everyone gets (imports and exports). A very large city, which is centrally located around a number of large cities with lots of trade goods, will not only make a great deal from exporting, but also a fair amount from importing. This is why, along with tax income, you want your cities as large as you can make them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
How he managed to calculate the distances by tiles, I do not know.
In the first instance, the fool counted squares from known landmarks (Wonders, for the most part). He then learned of the show_cursorstat RomeShell command. Unlike other RomeShell commands, you can use this as many times as you like. It's then just a question simple of trigonometry.
Trade Fluctuations - I suspect this is to do with population changes.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Just a minor error : you forgot "crop rotation" in your farming level :)
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by theorother
In my games the increase due to paved roads is 100%. It's 50% for Highways.
Oops, typo. I quickly checked my conclusion papers, I did put down "road -->paved = 2x" too. ~:) I'll double-check the mess of data papers to be absolutely sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
Trade Fluctuations - I suspect this is to do with population changes.
The increments do not happen concurrently though. Example, land trade w/ settlement A,B,D, increases but not C,E etc. Or you're saying population changes in the others settlements not the original?
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
Basically, the more populated the market is, the more money everyone gets (imports and exports)
I have to dispute this. I checked for population effect on trade but there's no relationship I've seen. For example: Tingi gets 1700+ denari income from exporting the same stuff to Corduba, but only about 200+ denari with Carthago Nova. Maybe it is distance related?
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
I have two test provinces with the same population and the same taxes, but the equation for this relationship is nary obvious.
You have two settlements with the same population, no Governors, same tax rate, same difficulty level, but have different tax incomes? I've never seen this in my games. Would you mind making the game available to me? I thought I had tax income pretty much solved. Ho hum
No governors, Normal tax, no Rebels, same difficulty level, in-game (Arretium and Arimium). SAME taxes collected, same population.
Arretium = 5232 pop, 745 denari tax.
Arimium = 5230 pop, 745 denari tax.
Uhm, sorry, I'll check your old posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
Sea Imports – Sea import income is ALWAYS 20% of the exporter income.
Example:
Settlement A has a 100 denari export income for exporting to Settlement B;
Settlement B gets 20 denari Sea Import income as a result.
This is regardless of roads, trade buildings, ports, governors or any other factors that are involved in the trade. There can be possible limits to this relationship (see Sea Import Routes).
Sea Import Routes – You can see them by which directions the trade ships are moving. There are instances that Sea Import income isn’t being reported, despite a Sea Export to that settlement is being reported in another town. Thus, there may be some cap that limits how much can be imported by a town. Unlike, sea exports where the number of routes are determined by port type, this is not so in sea imports. More tests will be needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewt
2. 2 cities can export the same resource to a city. While both of those 2 cities get export income, the city being exported to gets import income from only one of them.
Andrew, is that what you're replying to? Oh nice, will have check this out.
I'll attend to all your comments, infos, and corrections. Thx for the replies, and again please, if you find any mistakes, speak up. ~:)
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
The increments do not happen concurrently though. Example, land trade w/ settlement A,B,D, increases but not C,E etc. Or you're saying population changes in the others settlements not the original?
I'm not sure, I'd have to see your data to see exactly what you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
I have to dispute this. I checked for population effect on trade but there's no relationship I've seen. For example: Tingi gets 1700+ denari income from exporting the same stuff to Corduba, but only about 200+ denari with Carthago Nova. Maybe it is distance related?
I think perhaps distance is a factor, but trade income is most definitely affected by population. Absolutely no question - I've seen what happens when you change populations. You lose money from exports, the imports you already get, and you might lose entire import routes. [see example]
Tax: Sorry I misread the original post. Damn my speed reading skills. OTOH, I'm not meant to be 'wasting' time here at all...
Of course, I forgot another geographical restriction on sea trade: you can't sea trade with a settlement you have a land route with! But maybe that was obvious.
Oh, and trade income doesn't seem to be affected by campaign difficulty.
Hacking Athens down by 75%
Code:
Pop 30074 7500 Pop Goods
Land
Lari 547 518 28414 Ag,Fe, OO
Therm 549 520 29777 Ag,Fe, OO
Cor 595 555 17949 Ag,Fe, OO,Tim,Marb
Imports
Spart 307 283 20830 Not Reported
Rhod 160 n/a 22515 Tim
Thess 145 134 23466 AU, Tim
Kyd 191 176 20564 Dye
Sard 166 151 16379 Tim, Marb,Text
Byz 120 n/a 23121 AU, Tim
Perg 161 147 18393 Tim,Wine,Text
Exports
Kyd 1364 1260 20564 Ag,OO
Perg 960 862 18393 Fe,OO
Sard 906 797 16379 Fe,OO
Totals 6171 5403
One thing to note: the trade income, as given in the trade summary scroll, is different than the figure given in the Settlement Details scroll. Is this just in my games, or is everyone seeing this? FYI, the corresponding drop in actual income is 7067 to 6165 Denarii.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
Andrew, is that what you're replying to? Oh nice, will have check this out.
I'll attend to all your comments, infos, and corrections. Thx for the replies, and again please, if you find any mistakes, speak up. ~:)
Yeah, that was what I was replying to.
For trade, distance seems to be the biggest factor. Halicarnassus and Rhodes are exporting 2000+ each to each other in my game. The largest sea exports tend to be cities right next to each other.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
If distance is a primarily determinate of the value of a route, then that would certainly explain the lack of really long trade routes in the game. I have some fiendishly simple ideas to test if this is indeed the case, but they will have to wait.
Just noticed an odd thing: the trade income from Byzantium (to Athens) dipped (~7%) when I constructed the Imperial Palace. It only went back up to its previous level when I built a Curia. Very curious indeed.
No time to investigate further on either point though. Perhaps tomorrow.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
the trade income from Byzantium (to Athens) dipped (~7%) when I constructed the Imperial Palace.
I've had the same thing happen when finishing trade-building upgrades. I finally did find my data file from that test I ran two weeks ago. Will have to dig it out and get some income-dip percentages for each of the buildings, but it was quite consistent IIRC.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Also re: trade distance, there must be something to this. The largest income cities I've ever had have been pairs like Londinium/Samarobriva, Corduba/Tingi, and Patavium/Ariminum.
Didn't think about that at all until I saw your post andrewt, good point.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamur
Also re: trade distance, there must be something to this.
A bit more data, this time from Kydonia:
Code:
Pop Import Town DisCity DisPort
16379 469 Sardis 25 15.5
18595 489 Perga 30 20
DisCity is the city-city straightline distance.
DisPort is the straightline distance from the rally point of each port.
Only thing I would say is that it may go on the length of trade route itself, which is much, much harder to quantify.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
I'm not sure, I'd have to see your data to see exactly what you mean.
Example: N.M (forgot which test was this)
Prov. (turn)(turn+1)(turn+2)
Land trade:
Lem (149)(150)(152)
Lug (204)(205)(205)
Mas (118)(119)(120)
Osc (78)(79)(79)
Sea Imports:
Arr (93)(93)(99)
Seg(80)(81)(81)
Sea Exports:
Arr (319)(320)(321)
Pal (273)(277)(278)
What's causing those tiny number increases? When testing and calculating 40 denari values and lower, you can understand how it can change the deviation by a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
I have to dispute this. I checked for population effect on trade but there's no relationship I've seen. For example: Tingi gets 1700+ denari income from exporting the same stuff to Corduba, but only about 200+ denari with Carthago Nova. Maybe it is distance related?
I think perhaps distance is a factor, but trade income is most definitely affected by population. Absolutely no question - I've seen what happens when you change populations. You lose money from exports, the imports you already get, and you might lose entire import routes. [see example]
Interesting results. I also forgot to mention that Carthago Nova has about 16000+ pop while Corduba has 15000+ pop. Perhaps, distance is a much bigger factor. Also, no trade buildings were destroyed when you reduced the population?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamur
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
the trade income from Byzantium (to Athens) dipped (~7%) when I constructed the Imperial Palace.
I've had the same thing happen when finishing trade-building upgrades. I finally did find my data file from that test I ran two weeks ago. Will have to dig it out and get some income-dip percentages for each of the buildings, but it was quite consistent IIRC.
That is weird. So there's level-dependency too when factoring trade income? BTW, the trade routes never changed at all? :dizzy2: ~:confused:
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
A bit more data, this time from Tarentum.
Code:
Pop Exports Town DisCity DisPort Resources
15516 1436 Salona 12.5 9 Only Cu
28733 1296 Apollo 10 4.5 Cu, Timb
29777 613 Therm 20 11.5 Cu, Timb
Only thing I would say this time is that Tarentum is my capital, and I've always suspected funny things happen with it.
Oh, and if you notice that Apollonia is ~half the distance than Thermon, and the income is also roughly half, despite having similar populations. So, my current theory is that distance plays a major role, whilst population plays a more minor role.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
Also, no trade buildings were destroyed when you reduced the population?
Absolutely nothing changed but the population, not even the date!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietus
So there's level-dependency too when factoring trade income? BTW, the trade routes never changed at all?
No changes, no. I'm being to suspect a situation similar to what it was for squalor - only more complicated! Which if it is, I think we may never get a good handle on the numbers, unless a Dev comes in and gives us the equations behind them.
Edit: Thanks for the numbers. Some of them could well be population changes, but one or two look a bit odd.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Final bit of data for now:
This is taken from Croton before and after I declare war on the other Roman factions (which own Messana and Syracuse)
Code:
Pop Exports Town DisCity DisPort Goods
15516 880 Salona 18.5 17.7 Ag
14098 805 Mess 10 9 Ag Ally,Trade Agreement
21950 764 Syra 15 17.2 Ag Ally,Trade Agreement
Pop Exports Town DisCity DisPort Goods
15516 880 Salona 18.5 18 Ag
28733 590 Apoll 11.5 14 Ag
29777 491 Therm 18 15 Ag
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Do you mind if I post some of your work to the Rome Wiki we have set up?
Or would you like to contribute yourself, perhaps?
http://www.kanwei.com/romewiki/
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
therother is busy working on RL, I'm fairly certain he won't have the time to add this to the wiki. Unfortunately same for me here for about a week at least, it's that time of the semester I guess.
One thing to add to the discussion: I did dig out my data from the 20-turn run I did with the Julii a while back. Here's some data of interest:
Arretium started with port, land clearance, roads.
- turn 1: tax income was 786, trade income was 210
- turn 12: tax income had grown 845, trade was 482. This was not linear with the population -- tax % dropped 3 points based on population + trade + farm incomes
- turn 13: finished market. tax income dropped to 774, trade income up a bit to 521.
- farm income throughout stayed basically the same
Ariminum started with land clearance, roads.
- turn 2: tax income was 697, trade income was 109
- turn 3: finished port. tax income dropped to 630, trade income up to 141
- turn 6: tax income was 648, trade income was 160
- turn 7: finished trader. tax income dropped to 580, trade income went up to 174.
So on average when completing trade upgrades, I got a 68 denarii drop in tax income, and a 28.3 denarii rise in trade income.
I had other completions but they were affected by environmental factors (governor changes, seiges).
I say to myself, :dizzy2:
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
No changes, no. I'm being to suspect a situation similar to what it was for squalor - only more complicated! Which if it is, I think we may never get a good handle on the numbers, unless a Dev comes in and gives us the equations behind them.
With the base trade value, it is definitely worth a couple of tests!! The numbers will be very helpful because I can now track how each values are increased!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khelvan
Do you mind if I post some of your work to the Rome Wiki we have set up?
Or would you like to contribute yourself, perhaps?
Are there dedicated editors or moderators in there that checks the data that comes in? I'm fairly concerned about the integrity of the data and information that's gonna be posted and edited. At least here, I can ask for feedback and responses that I can rebutt myself. ~:)
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
If you have anything to add to the discussion of the trading system above, please do so in the Trade Research from Quietus' Quick Economics Guide (for comments specifically relating to the work above) or the Investigation of Trade Income (for anything else regarding trade), both of which are in the Ludus Magna.
Thanks.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
The economics of the game are a mystery to me. I have not done the analyses that you people have but I can see that each building cuts income in some fashion. I have also seen that population actually cuts your income. The best thing to do with a large unruly city is to let it rebel & wipe it out. Then for a few turns at least you have a positive income from it as well as the tens of thousands that you may have looted. I have seen with the 1.2 patch that looting is less lucrative than in the original.
There are only a few cities that remain profitable with or without a governor. I am unsure of all that is going on with the build etc. but some of it would seem to be ridiculous. The building of blacksmiths, armories, stables, & what-not should not have a negative effect on the economy but none the less they do. Even walls… I understand maintenance fees but you start out paying a fortune for the larger building & they destroy your ability to continue. Not building is not much better as the population growth will also eat away profits. I am not an expert on ancient cities but it would seem that there was profit to be had in ruling, not assured bankruptcy. Something in the model needs to be changed. One thing I know for sure is that Egypt provided the Romans the cash for their great gifts to the Roman welfare state but in the game these three provinces are usually liabilities.
Spain was also wealthy but taking it in this game will be a burden over time in this game. There are no explanations of these things that I have found but if some one knows I would sure love to hear it.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
The Farming income is not % based. It has been a few weeks since I tested it, but In my testing in 1.2 I have found it to be income increments. The base farm level stats in the region file determines farm income. The descr_strat.txt file has the settlement tax level. These work together where farm income = region farm level * settlement tax level (in the strat file). Farm upgrades are in incrementes of one. So improving farms by one level is an increase of 51 denarii per turn.
EDIT: Also, 1 farm level = 0.5% population growth. This is why cities with high base farming values like Carthage and Patavium grow like weeds no matter what you do.
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
I've already tested the farms back in October, I just wasn't posting them since I wanted to do more tests on the sea and land trades (which is the meat of it all ~:) ).
Anyway, here's the value I had then(tell me if they are correct):
D. Farming –
Farming Income –Farming income is based on farming levels, eg Land clearance, Communal farming, Crop rotation, Irrigation, Latifundia. It is also based on the Fertility of the soil (High, Medium, and Low) and Harvest (Poor to Excellent).
Upgrades depend on the harvests, which can vary from turn to turn:
- Poor Harvest = + 64-65 denari when upgraded.
- Average Harvest = + 68 denari when upgraded.
- Excellent Harvest = +73-74 denari when upgraded
Upgrading: (see above).
Level 0 (Base farming value) – Depends on Settlement and Harvests.
Level 1 ( Land clearance) – Depends on Harvests.
Level 2 ( Communal farming) – Depends on Harvests
Level 3 (Crop Rotation) – Depends on Harvests
Level 4 ( Irrigation) – Depends on Harvests
Level 5 (Latifundia) – Depends on Harvest
Only the base values differ in each province.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
EDIT: Also, 1 farm level = 0.5% population growth. This is why cities with high base farming values like Carthage and Patavium grow like weeds no matter what you do.
The farm level bonus shows up in the parchment. Not all great growth is bad though. Every 0.5% growth after 5% growth adds a population boom public order bonus of 5%.
Edit:
Hi Fisherking,
Killing off population is not something you want to do. It is a misconception that adding a province lowers income. Adding a province ALWAYS increase the income total. Only the distribution of the cost is different (because it is based on population).
Think of it as a pie. The pie got bigger, but the distribution is different. While some of your provinces' income got smaller (yes?), check your other provinces. Their income just got bigger.
Read "Wages and Upkeep" up there, that explains it all by itself.
Population growth doesn't eat profits as you think. Upgrades are a function of Population and Income is a function of Upgrades (and population as well). Those building you need to erect are tiny in cost compared to what they add.
Always occupy. You only need to enslave as you move outward of your capital. But don't exterminate, that is a no-no. I'm taking in 150+ K denari net (minust the costs) per turn (50 provinces). In Athen, I'm taking 12+ k per turn ( and that with all those negative vices that CA bullheadedly add to actually punish the good players. Oh joy :dizzy2: ).
2nd Edit:
Red,
Read your edit. Yes, we'll move the discussion to Ludus Magna. Just a quick one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
On Very Hard level, farm income is reduced by 15%.
80 denaris x 0.15 = 12 denari. 80 denari - 12 denari = 68 denari. Sounds about right. ~:)
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Quietus,
I'm still trying to decipher farming fully. I found an error with the way I was evaluating it before, but the values you give still don't match what I am seeing. There are discrete levels, but it wasn't 51 pts. per level.
First conclusion: Farming comes in 80 pt. increments on medium strategic difficulty with average harvest.
The wierd part is that some levels seem to not increment up? For example:
Level 2 = 160 (Siwa)
Level 3 = 160 (Asturica)
Level 4 = 240 (Damme)
Level 5 = 320 (five examples I've checked)
Level 6 = 320 (four examples I've checked)
Level 7 = 400 (Carthago Nova)
Level 8 = 480 (three examples I've checked)
Level 9 = 560 (two examples...but a third is 160 higher with land clearance)
Level 10 = 640 ??? Not tested
Level 11 = 720 ? Not directly tested (10 + 1 for land clearance Memphis)
Level 12 = 800 ? (Alexandria has land clearance, should = 13 but gets 800.)
Level 13 = 800 ? (Corduba)
Level 14 = 960 ? (Carthage, but should be 15 for land clearance)
Second conclusion: I also noticed that in some instances, first level farming shrines provide no farm bonus until the first level farm is built. This REALLY complicates things, although you can see it when you put one in the build queue, if you don't see a faded farming icon next to the regular income icons, then you won't get a benefit yet. The oddest part is building the farm first does give the one level upgrade, just not the shrine. And if you build the shrine the next turn you get the extra point it adds (+2 total).
Poor harvest = 95% of average harvest (limited testing)
Excellent harvest = 107.5% of average harvest (limited testing)
On Very Hard level, farm income is reduced by 15%.
EDIT: Quietus, therother has added this as a topic in Ludus Magna. I'll try not to encumber your thread here too much with my discussion, but I hope you will have a chance to post what you have discovered in the research thread. Thanks!
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Re: A Quick Economics Guide & Primer to RTW
Hi everyone,
If you are reading this, this is an older version of the Economics Guide. Go to here Quietus' Rome: Total War Guide for the latest version.
I will ask KukriMan to remove this Guide from this section at once.
Thx
