Germania

I've been playing a custom battle (10,000 denarii) set in germania against the germans. They keep whipping my butt over and over. I have tried different schemes but they just seem too strong. I have used various force configurations and usually like to place my self towards the left rear deployment area so I can make them cross as much open space as possible. Supposedly according to the "culture" demographics, they are supposed to be strong infantry with little cav. There cav beats the hell out of mine. Sometimes I have even been able to hide some cav in the foward right area of the woods and sneak around as the germans pass but in the end my formations just can't hold up (roman julli). Any suggestions??? :help:

Germania has a great unit roster and they definatly have strong cavalry.We cant really help unless we know what troops the enemy army has.Are u defending or attacking?

Hu r u playin as?

What is your usual army composition? This bit of info will give us a lot to work on.

in the imperial campaign, playing as germans, my heir at the start, within something like 40 turns (was ~250 BC) had become a ten star general, fighting both the Britons and Gauls (gauls broke their alliance with me, and the two factions allied against me, even though i never attacked them, it was because i allied with the roman factions, dacia, spain and thrace and sold alliance and trade usually for 2000+ denari, i love that trick)

anyway, my faction leader's army was basic but very effective
six units of warband spearmen, which have amazing phalanx. they are cheap and essential. one unit of screeching women, put right behind the spearmen
my general's cavalry, and two units of basic cavalry, and some of the time i had one unit of javelin throwing guys, and by the time i captured Alesia, i had added one unit of axemen and one unit of naked fanatics.

i can't remember the exact arrangement, but i had five hundred and fifty or so units in my army, fighting a full briton army one thousand and fifty or so, Heroic victory, killing over eight hundred of their men, mostly with my spearmen, making their units rout using my screeching women and flanking cavalry.

Ok...after 7 straight losses I started digging into the details and figured some stuff out. Custom battle (10,000 denarii scale) my force:
(The Losers)
1 gen
2 leg cav
2 cav aux
all variations of infantry combos...glads, arcani, cohorts, triarii, hastati, principes etc...some w/eagles
variations of scorpion, onager combos
velites
archers
(The Winners)
3 gen
2 praetorian leg cav
1 leg cohort w/eagle
2 leg cohorts
2 triarii
2 aux archers
1 onager
1 peasant

I usually just let the computer pick the germans. Off hand from memory it usually kicks out:
2-3 gen
1-2 noble cav (this varies with how many gens but usually 3-4 cav type on the field)
spearman utilizing phalanx in the center
axe man
swordsman?
berzerkers
and at least 3 of those god awful screaming "ladies"
skirmishers of some sort
This stuff must be cheap because the computer is often able to field an equal or BIGGER force and even add a chevron to one or two units

I looked at the numbers, germans VERY strong attack, but not necessarily strong defense. The setting, Germania forrest scene (custom battle) with both units in offensive mode.
I have often used my roman formations in depth and on defensive posture with counter attack punch depending on cav action on the wings. This has worked in Thrace, and Gaul. It does NOT work with germans.
The battle that won:
left rear deploy area-
left wing gen w/hvy cav
legions in the center
triarii on each inf flank
gen behind leg
onager same

peasants out in front in middle of field...sucks to be poor and bait
aux archers behind but close enough to run behind legion inf

gen w/hvy cav and aux archers in right front deploy...immediately circle through woods to avoid detection and behind german line advancing

bulk of german cav circles to my right flank but stays put while german lines advance
peasants run to my left
archers pelt advancing inf, onager same
german right wing inf moves on peasants
my left wing cav moves into attack and melee
german right wing balks then sends support from center
german cav launches into my right wing inf, I pull left wing triarii into support of right wing triarii and legion inf. Counter with my gen when charge stalls
I attack with hidden cav from woods to german rear creating real chaos and pelt with my archers from the woods too
Now that I have german spearman going in different directions I commit everything into the pot.
Bloody day, lose half my troops in the end but wipe germans from the field

Conclusion...Germans VERY tough, have to hit them really hard and they will break, keep them running, they re-form well.
I don't think this stategy is that great, there has to be a better way. Lose way too many men. On replay I noticed something....Friendly Fire is insane. Lost many men to it. I understand its very common thing, but I think this is on a little drastic scale. Anyways, this is long winded and segmented. Thanks for the replies ~:cheers:

As usual, forgot some things.
Germans field some "good" archers
Cohorts work a little better both with attack/def numbers and testudo ability. Must get the german hvy inf to turn for effective attacks into flanks and rear...then they break pretty easy. Any other way, say good-bye to that unit. ~:)

Forgive spelling, most of this is off the cuff as far as unit ident goes. Love the game, but MUCH to learn. ~:cheers:

Right of the top of my head, I would say either ditch the siege equipment or put a strong investment into it. Sure, 1 or 2 onagers will inflict casualties, but often, such a small force of onagers equals 4-6 good shots getting off, then the enemy closes to where artillery fire would be dangerous. Then all you've got is 2 unit slots filled with small units of poor H2H fighters. By removing your 1-2 onagers from your lineup, you can put much more effective and mobile units in their place. The other alternative would be to use at least 6 units of onagers, but I wouldn't reccomend that in this case.

The only other thing I may do is to have at least 4 units of archer auxilia in your group. They will help greatly against the spear warbands, and even some of the generals. And they can be used in H2H in a pinch. They are not your ordinary archers: they are archer auxilia, which means better discipline and defensive skills.

There's much more to say I'm sure, but this is all I can think of, and I'm full of turkey and alcohol..... ~:cheers: ..... :blank: ..... :zzz:

i would replace the velites with more archers or heavy Inf. They seem overly weak in melee, they run out of ammo quickly, and dont have the killrate of your auxies.

Besides, thats what legionaires are for. Set them to fire at will and they will chuck some pillum down on those screaming savages. Almost any unit you can name is better than velites. Alright... They can be good set up right behind the legionaires, becuz the angle they lob spears is high, so fewer FF than archers, but overall, they are weak.

When your men finally make contact with the enemy, take archers off Fire at will and target them on the rear of the enemy. Wont stop FF, but should help some.

The only reason I grabbed some velites was because I read somewhere here that javelins were effective against phalanx formations??? The other issue is money. At custom (10,000 denarii) level it's tough. I guess dumping the onager in favour of aux archer would be better. Haven't crunched the numbers, perhaps dump onager and velite (cheap) and maybe I'll have enough for 2 more aux archers. Will these have much effect on the spearman formations or hvy german infantry? If you can get the center phalanx (spearman) to turn and hit them in the flank/rear they'll break but you're also dealing with axeman supporting them and those screaming women (who drive ME nuts). I don't know what you'd do fighting these guys in trees or tight cover, probably lose and lose badly.

The Ronin: Velites are usually against Chariots or Elephants due to a special bonus they received from it. Not sure that it's useful against Phalanxes though. Try to draw the enemy out from cover if they're, otherwise like you said, lose and lose badly :surrender:

Try four units of war dogs. I whipped Germany using equites and hastati, because of the war dogs. I set the dogs loose on the spear bands (1 to 1). This disrupted the formation. The dogs seemed to get under the spears and were immune to the screamers. The equites went after the screamers. This caused the german cav to head off the equites. The equites then ran in a large circle, with the german cav chasing them, and ran back in to the screamers. The hastati then got split between the spear bands and hemming up the german cav. As soon as the first unit routed, the hastati working on that unit turned to its nearest enemy. This allowed an increase in the unbalance for a particular "fight." This caused more routes. A domino effect if you will.

Funny you should mention that. I went on and played a custom (10,000 denarii scale) battle against the germans in the Prippet Marshes (?). I took the advice of previous posts and dumped the onager and velites and picked up 2 more aux archers and 1 wardog and 1 more peasant. So now the army looked like this:
2 gen
2 praetorian hvy cav
1 leg cohort w/eagle
2 leg cohort
1 hastati
2 auxilia (spearman)
3 aux archers
1 wardog
2 peasants

Germans fielded usual 3-4 cav mix (gen/noble), spearman, axemen, swordsman(?) more bezerkers, warbands, archers (the "good" ones) BUT no women this time. Must of left them at home.

The deployment was a little different since the bulk of the right side area is trees with sparse trees and fields for most of the left side. I deployed foward (un-usual for me) with a group of peasants way far left in the open, one cav wing (gen/hvy cav combo) archers and war dogs in the patch of trees in the center, peasants in the open between center and right trees then the bulk of the force in the right forrest area with the archers positioned closest to the field along with my right wing cav, infantry supporting behind but to the right to "wheel" through the trees as the germans move by. AI is definately a computer because when it saw the peasants it sent half of its cav to my far left after them. It then committed cav and forces to the peasants in the center/right after I advanced them foward then ran them back (bait). I kept the archers from opening up right away (which is a pain to control), started swinging my hvy inf in a wheel motion, hastati and aux to support my now detected archers etc, and committed my cav wings in an attack from 2 directions. By now the AI is splitting spearman attention in different directions (due to war dogs running out of the center woods into his warband units) and movement of troops in the woods. BOTH my gen and the german gen ran away from this fight (?). Now its nip and tuck, toe to toe with his earlier cav adding to the fray. In the end, I wipe the germans out for the most part but once again I lose half my men. One thing I did notice by accident and don't know if this will work on a larger scale, but if I used my auxilia (spearman) head-on against his phalanx spearman I could at least hold them long enough to wheel a cohort around the flank, once they break the Hastati are fast and between them and what was left of my cav I could run them down. Anybody know how long auxilia can "hold" these guys? It could be a useful pinning stategy, but for how long I don't know. Both sides in this case were pretty whittled down when I started doing it. Is it common just due to "battle" to lose half your men in a victory, thus the price of war??? It could be painful and costly in a campaign game, especially if your losing "seasoned" troops.