AI Aggressiveness/Competence issues

I'm having some problems with the AI aggressiveness in Vanilla RTW at both Medium and Hard campaign difficulty. Before I go ahead and see if moving on to VH corrects the problem, I'd like to find out from those with more experience if I'm doing something wrong or if this is a known issue.

basically, the AI rarely seems to take territory beyond a token settlement or two during the first few turns. Later, some factions do get into knock-down wars, but the factions that are supposed to expand (primarily the roman factions) do not.

Example: In two successive campaigns at Hard campaign difficulty, the following happened each time:

1) Julii took Caralis. In one of the two, they did not even take Segesta. They then stopped expanding.
2) Brutii took Apollonia, then stopped.
3) Scipii besieged Syracuse, then broke off the siege.
4) Carthage did nothing (that I could see - deeper Africa was in Fog of War)

My initial campaigns were as the Julii (like everyone), and I did not notice this provblem then. In fact, both the Brutii and Scipii expanded significantly, taking most of Greece and all of Sicily, respectively. Carthage did seem to be pretty weak, but from what I can gather I'm not the first to have noticed this.

My primary concern is with the Julii. The Brutii seem to be OK, if a lot slower in expanding than I am when I play them. The Scipii I am less confident of, but my data's not good because I played factions in their area in the tests and made their life somewhat difficult.

When i play as the Julii, taking Mediolanum and Patavium are priorities - I take them as soon as I am strong enough, sometimes even ignoring a senate mission to take Caralis. I don't expect the AI to do this, but not mounting an attack within 15-20 turns is a problem. In one game as Brutii I had become rich enough to buy Patavium and give it to the Juliii before they had even taken a 5th settlement.

Is this in line with your experiences? If so, would moving up to VH help correct the problem?

I initially thought the problem might be due to my installing the Cherry Vanilla Pack, but not only does that not make sense given what I know about the changes made, it also doesn't explain the problem persisting even when I reverted to vanilla RTW....

Besides Carthage and the Seleucid Empire that are always defeated very quickly I haven't noticed any troubles, the Roman faction are very aggressive, especially the Brutii and Scipii. I play on VH settings but my first campaign was on H and I didn't encounter such problems.

Your problems have nothing to with the Cherry Vanilla pack, as you rightfully assumed.

All your concerns are valid, and I share the same ones. In fact, I've found that AI factions have an incredibly difficult time assaulting and conquering settlements held by rebels and I've seen a dozen or more of the AI's units loitering about outside of the rebel-held settlement and never seiging it, or if they do - they always back off eventually. I just sit and hope that CA is building a mammoth of a patch at the moment.

In my experience the Julii do have a problem expanding, like yourself, i always capture Mediolanum and give them as a gift. Once they have that region they often expand slowly into Gaul. If you don't "help them out" they seem to pile armies directly into Gaul without any proper support. This often ends with Julii stacks strung out and picked off at will by the Gauls. Not very becoming of the Roman strategic genius that i was lead to believe they had!

I also don't think (from memory) Carthage have ever captured any regions in any of my campaigns so far. I'll be happy expanding my empire and get the message that Carthage has been wiped out!!! I've not even fought against them once yet! (Except for historical battles)

I have taken Spartan's advice now though and tweaked the AI personalities. This is yet to have an effect until i start a new campaign, so i guess we'll see how it turns out.

*Ringo*

In my game as Carthage I hold two cities in Sciliy. The Greeks still have their one. Both of us are at war with th Romans. The Romans (Brutii and Scipii) constantly land piddling units of troops who consequently do nothing, just building up until I kill them. They don't come near me and do not try to besiege the Greek town, just stand next to it. There is also a large Greek stack on the island, but this does nothing to the Roman stacks. So everyone just stands around, and generals die of old age (unless I get them first)! Also the Greeks will not ally with me despite the threat of Rome. Neither will the Egyptians, the Spanish, the Gauls or the Numidians. Very strange.

In my game (Brutii: Normal) the Julii have managed to conquer most of Gaul and Spain, whilst the Scipii managed to build an empire in north Africa. Britannia also seems to be doing well and I have noticed some British provinces as far east as Northern Macedonia.

However, I agree that the AI does seem to take multiple attempts at capturing rebel cities, rarely sending a large enough force to do the job.

I had a rant about this the other week, then posted on the RTW board about it too. Basically, as far as I see it, the campaign file is sensitive to carthage/julii force strength changes. I reckon any mod (and most mods do) that alters Carthage starting units causes a problem with the Julii...

Read on to see why...

I modded my RTW quite often. I added the "admiral star" fix, increased build times for naval units, increased recruit times for agents, changed other things here and there. I also did a lot of editing of the campaign folder. Specifically trying to strengthen the cartaginians to make them more of a threat to Rome, help them expand in Spain.

This I did by adding extra units, buildings to their settlements, traits and ancilleries to their leaders etc. And I had been doing this for weeks. Little changes here and there, including build/politics AI changes (balanced smith, fortified caesar etc).

Only last week, I started observing AI factions by removing fog of war and watching them. I would be a faction out on the edge of the map like Briton or Parthia so I could observe from a distance and have as little bearing as possible on events. I noticed Carthage was incredibly passive. After Hanno would launch his initial attack in Sicily, they did very little. He would lose, then Sicily would fall to the Scipii, then Thrapsus or Lepsis Magna and then Carthage. Carthaginian units would move around in small units never on mass, and if a nearby Carthaginian city was under siege, they typically ignored it! In Spain they made no gains. Caralis always fell on turn 3 or 4.

Also the Julii seemed passive, after their initial attack on Segesta and Caralis, they simply loaded up Biremes full of troops and sat off the coast for decades and decades. They made no gains. This would happen recurrently, on all campaigns and was a real disappointment.

The attack on Caralis seems hard coded to me. It always happens, even when Corsica is added as a region that is close to the Julii, they still go for it. Infact, the initial objectives for all factions appear to be entirly consistant. Julii - Segesta, Caralis. Scipii - Syracuse, Lilybaeum. etc. etc.

Most other factions seemed ok, none looked passive, and the problem seemed to revolve around the Julii and Carthage.

So I reverted to the default campaign, no mods, no admiral fix, normal build times, no changes to faction strength or AI...

The difference seems marked to me. The Julii would still take Caralis, but would then attack Osca in Spain a turn or two later or even Corith in Greece. The Carthaginians even made gains in Spain, and put up a fight for besieged settlements.

So I guess I have come to the following conclusions and wondered what others think.

First 2 or 3 objectives for each faction are hard-coded??? In the case of Caralis, the Julii usually attack with 3 units, but when I strengthen Carthage (though not the settlement at Caralis) they send more. It is as if the AI calculates comparative faction strength before launching an attack and sends more accordingly (even though there are only 2 enemy units on Sardinia). This meant that the Julii would send a stack of 6,7 or 8 on Oppius' boat. They would then be left on Sardinia and Oppius would return to pick up the army for the next mission to Spain, however as there were less spare units for this conquest, he would have to wait, and then the AI seemed to have "missed the boat" as it were and the fleet would just sit there as it filled with Julii units turn after turn.

So, I have to ask the question, whether mods that alter the campaign file are not doing more damage than good? I have heard many complain of ships loaded with troops sitting for turns on end doing nothing. In the other forum, some said they have the Julii fleet off Segesta forever also.

From what I've observed it happens less often if you don't touch the campaign file. Then the AI seems to perform better for these two factions.

So what are others peoples experiances of watching these two factions?

Has anyone had any significant success using diplomacy settings in the campaign file so factions start at war?

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

In my game as Carthage I hold two cities in Sciliy. The Greeks still have their one. Both of us are at war with th Romans. The Romans (Brutii and Scipii) constantly land piddling units of troops who consequently do nothing, just building up until I kill them. They don't come near me and do not try to besiege the Greek town, just stand next to it. There is also a large Greek stack on the island, but this does nothing to the Roman stacks. So everyone just stands around, and generals die of old age (unless I get them first)! Also the Greeks will not ally with me despite the threat of Rome. Neither will the Egyptians, the Spanish, the Gauls or the Numidians. Very strange.

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OT
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts or even alliances Slyspy. I also was in the same position as you, however with the Greeks as my allies. Then the turn-coat bastards stabbed me in the back and took both my cities in Sicily.

That big stack that they have is a whole load of armoured hoplites which I could not kill with anything I had on the island. I had no sligners or skirmishers. I eventually had to bribe (something I never do) them to get rid of them as all my main armies (and Generals) were either campaigning or seiging in Numidia, Rome, Spain and North Italy and I was really Stretched at the time. Would have lost the game if I did not bribe. Anyway, my point is exterminate them as soon as you can. Lousy double crossing Greeks ;)

As for the the main point. Yeah I have noticed that once the AI has achieved certain objectives, it tends to sit on its hands. I have only played as Julii and Cartage, but not one of the Roman factions has tried to launch an assault against Cartage. Even though they control the seas. This would make control of the seas a lot more important (from a stragetic point of view). Apart from that having great fun with my War elephants.........Squish squish little Roman..... haha

I've also noticed the other Roman families expanding very slowly while I was happily conquering (slowly too, but hey I expanded faster than they did). When I played the Brutii family I conquered the former Macedonian, Greek and Thracian lands, picked a few Dacian lands, and when I started expanding in Minor Asia (Pergamum, Rhodes) and North Africa (Cyrene, Siwa, Lepcis Magna), only then my fellow Romans started blitzing their enemies (Julii wiped out the Gauls in a few years, that was really a blitzkrieg: every turn one or two provinces turned red, never seen an AI conquering that quickly, and the Scipii walked over the Carthagians and Numidians). Now the Julii declared war on the Britons, and I have started fighting the Germans, and the blue armies are trapped between the green and red blocks, heh heh.

TL

In my experience, all the AI factions seem to expand slowly, and have extreme trouble with besieging settlements. I have seen a monster stack lay siege to a city (either rebel or another faction in control) that only had 1-2 units defending, and they would just besiege it for a couple of turns and then lose interest and back off. The roman factions always expand in campaigns when I am not running them, but never quickly. Like several of you, I notice that the Julii under AI control seems to take forever getting Mediolanium and Patavium. The Bruti eventually get most of the Balkans, but it takes them a long time to do it, and they don't seem to ever go across to Asia Minor. I can't think of any AI controlled faction ever going over about 12 provinces, and that's usually Egypt that gets that many, though the Gauls occasionally manage.

Using RTR mod.3.2 VH/H I've seen an interesting Roman development. Normally the capaigns I've fought follow pretty much the same pattern as outlined previously, i.e quick expansion sit back & relax.

I won't bore you with the details, but the scipii faction leader ended up on the small island just north of carthage, I didn't realise this until I decided to retake the island & wiped out their faction. This seemed to concentrate the Juli & Bruti on their own goals. Julii rapidly expanded & hold pretty much all Gaul & are sizing up Germania, while the Bruti have control of almost all of Greece. Downside is that every other faction seems to have fallen asleep, & is just sitting around waiting for one of the current faction heavies to come along & knock them on the head.

Its a real shame that this happens, especially after the inter faction rivalry in MTW, where you never knew who'd you come up against next, or for that matter where.

I'm useless with the txt files but has anyone investigated whether the factions are locked into a "zone of control" on the map? So that the map itself is the limiting factor rather than the actual AI traits of the faction?

The only AI faction I've ever seen really expand (though I haven't played a lot I'll admit) is Egypt, which usually ends up with most of Asia Minor unless I'm nearby to stop them. ~;)

Does it have anything to do with Marian reforms? I've been playing as the Seleucids on H/VH, and for many years saw nothing of the Romans. Then suddenly, the Scipii took the whole of Africa, up to the Nile, while the Julii appeared to have most of Gaul and were invading Greece and the Brutii had most of Spain. Very soon after, i started bumping into a lot of the post reform units.

Could the sudden acceleration be due to the new units appearing on the field, or is the ai coded in to wait until the reforms before steamrollering Europe?

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Originally Posted by Fridge

Does it have anything to do with Marian reforms? I've been playing as the Seleucids on H/VH, and for many years saw nothing of the Romans. Then suddenly, the Scipii took the whole of Africa, up to the Nile, while the Julii appeared to have most of Gaul and were invading Greece and the Brutii had most of Spain. Very soon after, i started bumping into a lot of the post reform units.

Could the sudden acceleration be due to the new units appearing on the field, or is the ai coded in to wait until the reforms before steamrollering Europe?

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Not likely. As the Big S on VH/H, I diplomatized map info at mid-game from the Brutii in Greece. The Marian Reforms hadn't happened yet, but the Romans were all over everywhere except Spain, Germania, and my third of the map. :duel:

I am playing the Seleucids, and when I eventually expanded into Greece, I easily conquered Corinth and Athens, but then I bogged down. The Romans (umm, green faction) sent at me some of the biggest and most powerful stacks I have ever seen. So on any given siege, they might have 3 overlarge stacks besieging my cities at any one time...surely I had to lose, given I was having difficulty reinforcing Greece due to Roman and Thracian controlled waters...

But an interesting thing happened. I would beat off one attack, from the lead besieging stack....wait for the next stack/wave to attack and then nothing! The 2 other stacks full of urban cohorts, early legionaries wouldn't attack, where I would be sure to be overwhelmed. This has gone on for turns now, and the Romans just keep throwing armies at my heavily fortified (but grossly outnumbered) cities. And they keep dying, one by one!

Also, units would ignore awaiting siege towers and sit there and get killed by my fortification's arrows! I would have lost Greece several times over, if this behaviour didn't keep happening...

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Originally Posted by Cadwallon

But an interesting thing happened. I would beat off one attack, from the lead besieging stack....wait for the next stack/wave to attack and then nothing! The 2 other stacks full of urban cohorts, early legionaries wouldn't attack, where I would be sure to be overwhelmed.

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Do you still have the timer on?

If so its possible the Roman's are not getting time to bring up their reinforcements from the second stack.

If as you say the stacks are full then the AI cannot begin to advance its reinforcements until a unit from its first stack has been destroyed or withdrawn. So, the secind stack cannot leave its base line until the fight with the first stack is almost over, so with the timer on its possible the second stack will never get into action.

Certainly, in open battles I have seen the enemy reinforced after I have routing their first army. One battle took me over two hours to finish with three waves of attacks.

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Originally Posted by Cadwallon

Also, units would ignore awaiting siege towers and sit there and get killed by my fortification's arrows! I would have lost Greece several times over, if this behaviour didn't keep happening...

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Yes. This is bad and needs to be corrected. Its pointless for the AI to sit there and take fire from the walls for no reason. If its units can't gain access to the city they should keep their distance.