Another Mongolian Solution

Nobody likes the Mongols.

1. They appear suddenly
2. In zoids
3. Have a comparable compassion to dwarves
4. And contribute to civilasation as Hitler contributed to ethnic equality.

Ive only until recently started to complain because im trying out the eastern factions, but alas, i have found a solution.

6 groups of 60 of Pavise Cross/Arbas.
2 of 40 light/medium cav.
4~ of 100 spearmen.

Use this formation:

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The pavas will have amazing punch, endurance and cover to deal with the mongol horse archers. The spears will cut down pesky heavy cav and the light/med cav will do some chasing/holding.

I actually like meeting the Golden Horde.

Last night I had an amazing battle against them :charge:

There were swarms of Mongel heavy horse, horse archers and infantry that attacked my forces (the Danes) who were defending on a small, wooded hill.

This battle lasted three hours :duel:

From the start it was a desperate struggle, with the outcome often hanging in the balance.

I used heavy infantry/pikemen in the front ranks, with a mixture of archers/crossbow in the rear. Many of these were mercenary troops. I had no cavalry.

The Mongels pulled some devastating tactics on me (flanking, getting in behind, feinting attack, then withdrawing, etc, etc).

In the end I won the battle; the Mongels withdrew; and needless to say, I was exhausted. :dizzy2:

The battlefield was a sight to behold - it was truly an epic battle.

These desperate defence type battles are a great deal of fun.

But the Golden Horde is not done yet - they still have countless warriors ready to swarm across the barren wastelands. . .

So I know that many more battles will still be fought.

Even though RTW has come out; I just can't see MTW ever being sidelined. It is just too much fun and too varied a game.

Cheers!

As for countering the Horde:

Holding Muscovy is vital - the Horde must cross a river with two bridges, so the player should be able to hold the Horde at these two chokepoints with pikers and archers and some cavalry.

Let me start with I HATE the horde. That said, fighting the horde usually marks the climax of my campaign. Everything after that is almost lacklustre. In my most recent campaign those mongol bastages appeared after I thought I had the lock on dealing with them. I removed all but 100 garrisoned troops from khazar expecting a small GH army, but I had almost 1000 troops in Kiev defending my border and 5000 troops in Greece waiting to be sealifted to Khazar to screw the horde. 12800 ish GH troops appear in Khazar. Cursing and swearing, I send in 2700 of my boys including 2 units of Merc missle troops (pac arbs, longbowmen).

The pav arbs devastate the horde heavy cav and the longbowmen lay waste to waves of heavy cav and mongol foot soldiers, but I have to withdraw them first and start replacing them with my turcoman foot soldiers (all valour 2, plus 3 valour for my 6 star Steepe Heavy Cav general and gold armoured).

The fight was insane. Insanely long. Because I had organised my stacks by unit type, my fight went through stages as my reinforcements came in. First, all I got were archers. Then heavy cav. I never made it to my stack of turcoman horse as about 3/4 of the way through the fight, they stopped attacking. I was so freaking tired I sped up the clock and let it run out. 3 units of sacaren infantry hold off the horse heavy horde and soak up waves of missle attacks from the horde foot well. Also effective was starting with 4 units of missile troops and 6 catapault crews (most already high valoured from previous fights). For some reason the GH Khan likes to parade at point blank range in front of my spears and archers while the rest of his forces seem to waver out of missile range. I let my catapaults and archers mow his unit down. Once he's dead, the Horde becomes a fight of atrophy which you easily win if you're patient.

For me the challenge was killing the horde as fast as possible, as I had to work the next day. My best tip, use Huscarles, or if available, Varangian Guard. When put in a wooded area they easily hold a flank. For some reason, GH AI always sends in their heavy cav into the woods and a single unit of Huscarles can rout a unit of GH HC in seconds in the woods. Heavy axe infantry resists arrows well and with the AP bonus you can almost hear the electronic blender noise as they mulch through enemy troops. No other unit mulches the horde like Huscarles. Better still, I can keep a unit of huscarles in the fight from the start, to the eventual end of the fight. To give you an idea of how heavily I use them, they start with 3 valour and end with 6, or even 8 valour huscarles. Missles troops are good on the horde, but once you run out of ammo, you swap them out for the next guys which takes time and creates potential vulnerabilities.

Another tip, for all the stupidity of the Horde's AI, it will exploit weaknesses in your line. What I do is feign a weakness by making a sizable gap in my line, especially near a wooded flank. When the GH cav races in to exploit the percieved hole, I filled it with screaming huscarles, usually with a late arriving unit arriving on the charging horde's flank (2 huscarle units charge, one intercepts the charge, the other flanks). Flanking with Ghazi works well as long as the ghazi do not recieve the charge. Ghazi are great in the woods, but in the open they get mowed down by mongol cav and missle troops.

After running out of missle infantry on my reinforcements I pulled back my infantry deeper into the woods and started getting heavy cav reinforcements. The Horde AI went after my battered, but vetran infantry in the treeline and pursued them deeper as I pulled them back. Once they were in I'd block their retreat outside the woods with heavy cav. Getting my general the butcher vice has never been easier.

Another tip, keep a solid unit of heavy infantry somewhere in a large stretch of woods. I used huscarles here as well. Although isolated, away from your general, they valour up massively by intercepting single units or any and all retreating/withdrawing units of GH entering their woods. Eventually, the AI will try to single them out, so make sure they are tough. My huscarles took on 3 units of mongol heavy infantry, 2 units of mongol foot, and 2 units of mongol horse archer all at the same time (they suffered horrible losses, but held) by the time my heavy cav arrived to relieve them they were down to 12 guys and routed ... all of 10 feet before they saw thier cav relieve them and they stopped and I sent them back in. I couldn't believe that although badly outnumbered 1 unit of huscarles held off 7 units of the enemy, inflicted horrible losses and gave my main force time to rest. The single unit is fantastic for messing with the AI's battle plan, causing chaos, and disrupting supply and retreat.

Needless to say, the horde disappeared before it ever really existed.

Yes unfortunately the AI is no Mongol Noyan and is happy to waste Mongol heavy cav, if this were not the case the Horde would be far less easy to deal with. The AI does not seem able to make full use of Mongol horse archers either...such a shame

......Orda

Do most people play with timer on or off. It sounds like you guys msut play with it off. Does the AI play differently with the timer off. I've been playing with it on and when im defending, at least only on normal difficulty, the AI sends their troops at me and routes within 20 minutes. Are there any guides on fighting large battles with lots of reinforcements, I tried looking(a little, didnt search that hard). I dont know how to play these well, so I dont and just let the Autocalc kill half my troops but hopefully more of theirs.

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4. And contribute to civilasation as Hitler contributed to ethnic equality.

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That made me laugh. ~D

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Originally Posted by derF

4. And contribute to civilasation as Hitler contributed to ethnic equality.

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Quite untrue actually.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Quite untrue actually.

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How so?

Yes, how is that untrue? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Quite untrue actually.

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Depends on whether or not you consider forging and consolidating a vast empire with brute force a valueble contribution to civilization in general.

Let's keep it MTW related.
If you want to discuss Hitler, go to the Monastery (if it's on a historical note) or Backroom if it's a political discussion.

I had a meeting with the Horde last night. Played Byz (expert, late), had 4 spearmen, a VG, 2 Kat's, 1 Prognoi A, 2 byz cav, 1 byz inf and a merc town militia and a merc feud sarge (and some missiles). First wave were 50 percent Mongol heavy cav and 50 percent foot soldiers. I only really began preparing 5 years in advance, and realized the only spear/polearm type troop I could muster, apart from mercs, were ordinairy spearmen!
So I xeroxed them, along with byz cav (for the Mongol HA, not as fast, but much stronger, can play a little of their game with these guys) and Prognoi. Still had a lot of KAT's, my emporer doesn't lie still in bed.. ~D

Now, it does work fine, I mean, I slaughtered them, thanks to a nice tree topped hill. As soon as the foot mongols came the byz infantry kicked two of them of the fieild and I started to pick off units that strayed too far from the heavy Cav cover (the mongol AI has this peculiar habit of trying to encircle your position, even when his troop types aren't suited for it. Had he had HA in the first wave, it would have made more sense). Later on he maneuvred the bulk of his Heavy cav to my left, so I set up most of my spears there militia and Varagians in reserve, and called their bluff when the trotted too close by. It were 3 or 4 charges from either side, but it it was too easy pinning them on spears and flanking or hammering them from behind with Kat's, PA and VG, even with Byz Cav! A massive rout, including the general, follwed: He lost 500, I captured another 450, I lost 77, mostly spearmen, and probably most because of catching stray arrows. I think I lost 10 cavalrymen (inlcuding Kat and PA) and one or two VG's. The next wave consisted 80 percent of HA, but they allmost all fled the field, all went like the wind after I managed to drive two of his HA units to death with 2 byz cav and a PA (He attacked with only 1900 men).

Remains a question: how do you guys counter the Mongol army, especially the heavy cav? I only could think of bringing enough spears and cav, but the unit roster of byz: Am I mistaken or is the sole spear-bearing (or pole for that matter) unit in the byz army a spearman? Not that it really matters, for obviously, they do fine, especially under wood cover against arrows and a bit of armour upgrade. But one does like to bring some fancy things to the battle. Here's my brand new top of the line Prognoi Agliance! Along with my old but still pretty undefeatable Kataphractoi! yes and in the rear the unsurpassed: SPEARMEN!! ?? :embarassed: ~:confused: :dizzy2:

Yes, the Byzantines only get ordinary spearmen. As for polearms they have to make due with militias, which don't get a bonus against cavalry. If you want to have a pinning unit, you have three options:

• Mercenary spearmen: it's expensive, but the Byzantines are rich
• Byzantine Infantry: these are very though units and although they don't get a rank bonus they will hold out for a while. You can also use Varangian Guards, but I think that a waste of money.
• Counter charge with Kataphraktoi also seems to work. Byzantines always seem to have a limitless supply of princes and ex-princes.

If you want a byzantine anti-golden horde unit, just train some varangians.

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Originally Posted by Mithrandir

If you want to discuss Hitler, go to the Monastery (if it's on a historical note) or Backroom if it's a political discussion.

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Were not discussing Hitler at all.

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Originally Posted by Hold Steady

As soon as the foot mongols came the byz infantry kicked two of them of the fieild

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I find this hard to belive. The mogol warriors are in skirmish mode so will fall back if chased. And anyway Byz Inf cant outrun them.

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Originally Posted by derF

I find this hard to belive. The mogol warriors are in skirmish mode so will fall back if chased. And anyway Byz Inf cant outrun them.

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I find this hard to believe because sword infantry gets murdered by mongol heavy cav, it is possible that there were not many or any MHC units fielded at the time. That said, Byz infantry if positioned well (re: painstaking use of the pause key) it is possible to use the HUGE unit size and relative durability to corner entire mongol armies into their resupply point and rout them, especially units trying to skirmish.

Do not forget to destroy any armourers, religious buildings, or valour granting buildings in khazar before the horde shows, unless you are trying to give yourself a challenge.

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Originally Posted by CherryDanish

Do not forget to destroy any armourers, religious buildings, or valour granting buildings in khazar before the horde shows, unless you are trying to give yourself a challenge.

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What religion is the Horde? I figure they must be pagans, right? So can they use my religious buildings? Otherwise I agree with the post: scortched earth is needed and whatever you gain by destoying it is yours...!

Regardless of religion, all religious buildings provide a morale bonus that the horde gets when they emerge. So, if you have a ribat in Khazar when the horde emerges, they get the +2 morale on all their emerging troops. Even if you smash the horde and prevent them from taking khazar, the emerged troops get the morale bonus.

Usually, when a faction from another religion takes a province, the first building to go is the religious building. Pagan factions sometimes do not pilage a religious building. I've seen one of my orthadox churches survive a horde victory.

EDIT: same applies to rebels or other emerging factions in any province. That said, if you see a faction re-emerge in your province, it's already too late to deny the bonus to them. You know when the horde is coming, so you know when to destroy your buildings.

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Originally Posted by derF

I find this hard to belive. The mogol warriors are in skirmish mode so will fall back if chased. And anyway Byz Inf cant outrun them.

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The mongols' first wave consisted solely of MHC :charge: and Mongol Foot Warriors :bow:

I ended up directly uphill of their position, since I rushed my troops to the crest of the hill (only fair, since I defended). He started shuffling his troops in some kind of AI flanking maneuvre. Works great with HA, but with MHC and MFW it looks a bit odd. Anyway, result was that his MHC cover was greatly dispersed in the center and to the right, most of them standing on the left or in transit from or to. His MFW started moving too, some back some to right or left, some standing and shooting. This created clusters of his troops moaneuvring all kinds of way or standing still. Seeing an opportunity, I dispatched a Byz inf to race down the hill and attack a cluster of 3 or 4 of them, since MHC's were mostly out of reach or busy doing some kind of transit maneuvre (I had various Heavy Cav or spearmen to cover their flanks if need be). Skirmish or not, the byz infantry bumped into two MFW units, possibly hindered by others in retreating, but being slaughtered anyhow, coming out with 20-25 or so each, running away, before I pulled my inf back. The MHC were not engaged by any of my troops IIRC, nor did they get the opportunity to attack my inf (if they did, I most probably would have been ready for them).

So believe whatever you want, but this is what happened. one more battle last night in Georgia, killed more than half of his MHC, the bulk of the horde in my game consists now of HA and naphta throwers. 2 or 3 more fights and'they will be a memory and we can get on with business as usual. My goal will be the reunification of the Roman Empire, only now in purple, governd from Constantinople! ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Hold Steady

My goal will be the reunification of the Roman Empire, only now in purple, governd from Constantinople! ~:cheers:

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A drink to your most noble goal ~:cheers: . AVE NEO-ROMA!

*dons helmet and joins the fight*.

Don't Forget my frient that your new roman empire will be Hellenic-speaking and orthodox... {Xaire mega nea Hagia Romaiki Aytokratoria} :book:

Bah, who cares?