Do we exist?

Are we as humans and this world really here? are we part of a complex computer world made by another species, each person is a complex peice of code learning through generations. Are we being watched as our A.I gets more intellegent? are our creators playing with us by laying certain scenarios upon us to see how we react, maybe our creators have a completely differn't world which if we ever found out about we would never be able to understand or comprohend.
No im not saying we are in the matrix, because in the matrix there was a real person at the end of the it....but maybe in this world we are merely just a program...or something like that.

The bible talks about our creator...being god......but maybe it means a different creator.....such that of another race.....maybe religion has been made up for us to make us think we were created from something.

im not mad, deppressed or suicidal but one could go mad thinking about what we are or why we are here......

anyone else got a theroy? no dumb ones please.............

It is a meaningless question for one can not find evidence that our world is an illusion.

this and what is the point in it all constantly have my attention, ill get back to you when i have the answer...

I had a fase in my life when I thought like you did, but then I was enlightened and now I have a more sophisticated answer. It's not for sure but then again what is?

Here's my theory. Man and the rest of life are complicated biological machines. Now we all born from someone and it all goes back mllions or maybe billions of generation back the first cell(or whatever it was). Ok, now, how was this cell created? It must have been the most powerful structure in the universe to hold in such potential as we (humans) have today. Hmphhh... What could it have been. Perhaps it was the so called "God particle" we are so researching today in Britain. Or it might be some other entity.

But consider this: If after death there is nothing and you simply stop existing, then what about before you were born? What were you then? Well there are two choices. You were either nothing, or you were someone. Ok, so if you were nothing then and you'll become nothing then there is no doubt you are nothing and you're existence is utterly meaningless. Or you were someone so you cannot die. Even after death. The real you cannot die if you really exist. So you see wither way you shouldn't worry.

I know it sounds a little confusing. Ask to clarify if you want. I really enjoy talking about things like this with intelligent people. Probably all theories i have come from conversations i have had. It's really kewl.

I believe what the Bible says, so I'll stick to it. Either way, I don't loose sleep on it. There is little, if any, practical knowledge in this, and I'm just as happy not really knowing.

Well my friend all knowledge comes from a blend of natural and social phenomena and logic. So basically you those are the onyl tools available to us. You shouldn't just "go" with the Bible. The Bible is fictitious but also very metaphorical. You should look for the hidden meanings and not take it literally.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

I had a fase in my life when I thought like you did, but then I was enlightened and now I have a more sophisticated answer. It's not for sure but then again what is?

Here's my theory. Man and the rest of life are complicated biological machines. Now we all born from someone and it all goes back mllions or maybe billions of generation back the first cell(or whatever it was). Ok, now, how was this cell created? It must have been the most powerful structure in the universe to hold in such potential as we (humans) have today. Hmphhh... What could it have been. Perhaps it was the so called "God particle" we are so researching today in Britain. Or it might be some other entity.

But consider this: If after death there is nothing and you simply stop existing, then what about before you were born? What were you then? Well there are two choices. You were either nothing, or you were someone. Ok, so if you were nothing then and you'll become nothing then there is no doubt you are nothing and you're existence is utterly meaningless. Or you were someone so you cannot die. Even after death. The real you cannot die if you really exist. So you see wither way you shouldn't worry.

I know it sounds a little confusing. Ask to clarify if you want. I really enjoy talking about things like this with intelligent people. Probably all theories i have come from conversations i have had. It's really kewl.

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But even if you were nothing but are something now you can still not be what you think you are and therfore be nothing. If you are not who or what you think you are then what are you and why are you. We have no idea on what we are.

"The dimensions of things are created by the limitation of our vision as interpreted by our brain. All around us is nothing but molecules; molecules in the air, molecules in our body, molecules in the space; molecules nothing but molecules. Our limitations of vision make us see only the bundles of molecules together as a table or a chair, a southern belle or a school bell. What if we could see through molecules? Then none of these differences would have mattered. A table would have looked like a chair and the belle would be indistinguishable from a bell. Our tactile feel of warm flesh would be meaningless if we could not feel; a round corner would not appear round at all."

Read here for an intresting view on things.

I dont' mean to be rude but i don't want to read some lame ass paper wirtten by some simplistic hack.

If you want to talk about molecules then why stop there? Go even deeper into atoms, or even electrons. None of that stuff actually exists. They are all energy fields. We weren't even talking about that. There's a difference between physics and biology. And humans are biological creatures.

In answer to your question if you were nothign then you are nothing. You are just as dead as a robot if that is true. There is no other way.


Of course I understand your doubt in perception but use your logic and you'll see the truth as you want it to be. Everything is like that. But you can polish your theory till it's perfect just like all scientists and philosopher do.

Ok, so if you were nothing then and you'll become nothing then there is no doubt you are nothing and you're existence is utterly meaningless.

well i believe i was nothing before and ill be nothing after, but how does that make me nothing now ? (unless that wasn't what you were saying ?)

and ive been thinking existence is entirely meaningless (not in a suicidal way though)

I think therefore I exist.

:p Though I hate Descartes, he was right about something ~;)

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Originally Posted by JAG

I think therefore I exist.

:p Though I hate Descartes, he was right about something ~;)

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This surprises me. What don't you like about Descartes?

You seem to be the kind of person who would appreciate his philosophy. What with his showing that knowledge is genuinely possible, and that, more particularly, a mathematically-based scientific knowledge of the material world is possible.

What must become of this century if even the rational ones like you won't subscribe to a Cartesian line of thought!?

:end:

Yes the person who started this is suggesting a "the matrix" kind of theory. Well there's nothing bad about "The Matrix". I your mind exists then that's all that matters.

"well i believe i was nothing before and ill be nothing after, but how does that make me nothing now ? (unless that wasn't what you were saying ?)"

What we have to comprehend that just "thinking" doesn't mean we exist. It has to be deeper then that. A computer can be programmed to think. But we are so much more then that. In order for us to trully exist we have to be immortal. It's like when they say your soul can never die, because by definition the soul is immortal. You know what I mean?

What we have to comprehend that just "thinking" doesn't mean we exist. It has to be deeper then that. A computer can be programmed to think. But we are so much more then that.

well its more than just thinking its the whole 7 signs of life my biology teacher taught me

the ability to:
reproduce
consume (basically eat and drink)
excrete
grow
move (unsure if this is one)
and theres 2 or 3 more depending if move is one of course this doesn't exclude a matrix style possibility

In order for us to trully exist we have to be immortal. It's like when they say your soul can never die, because by definition the soul is immortal. You know what I mean?

well to be honest i don't believe in the idea of a soul, so i don't follow that train of thought.

by those rules little griz then fire is a living organism.
thanks,
dessa

by those rules little griz then fire is a living organism.

well as i said there were 7, errm actually your wrong, fire can't reproduce (spread yes reproduce no)

It's pretty shallow to think that the mecahnics of living beings is enough to show true existence.

Ok so you don't beleave in souls. What do you beleave in? I'm asking because if you beleave that there nothing more then the mechanics then you automatically beleave that you will become nothing when you die. Also you would beleave that life is meaningless. Am I right or wrong?

well life is pretty shallow, and yes life does lack a meaning.
fire can reproduce, spreading causes new fires to start, i would classify that as reproducing.
also fires grow and shrink, and eventually die, but the one thing they do lack is, living things have a pretty set lifespan, a fire does not, a fire can live for infinity as long as there is fuel, but a human will die, even with plenty of food & water.

thanks,
dessa

i think therefore i am... nah, Descartes was the father of positivism (or positive philosophy) and that was the root of all evil... for details see guys like Wittgenstein, Heidegger, Foucault (and yes i have read them. not all they've written, but the important bits)
if the illusion of a Matrix like system would be so consistent and perfect as to not be distinguishable from "reallity" wouldnt that make it the equal of reality?
level of evidence that this world is an illusion equals level of evidence that says the wold is real. it's really to big of a question. maybe some hotshot philosopher/physician (thinking Hawking, anyone?) might crack this one.
I type therefore I am, I am therefore the forum exists... ~:) couldnt resist...

Its rather amusing how suddenly because of advances in artificial intelligence and technology suddenly our 'theories of existance' become more based around that... and less on spiritual and mystical explanations.

Do I think we are running in a box on someone's desk as an elaborate version of 'the Sims' probably not, and what I'd sugguest to whoever is spending all their time thinking about these things is to, get out more!!

We can never know the reason for existance, nor can we prove it one way or the other... So I say, enjoy life and try not to worry about things that are beyond explanation.

Who cares about all those hacks. Nietzsche is the only philosopher I've read and it's enough.

I agree with you Emperor, anyone who actually thinks it's even possible that we are in a "Matrix" type of thing then they are definetely idiots.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

It's pretty shallow to think that the mecahnics of living beings is enough to show true existence.

Ok so you don't beleave in souls. What do you beleave in? I'm asking because if you beleave that there nothing more then the mechanics then you automatically beleave that you will become nothing when you die. Also you would beleave that life is meaningless. Am I right or wrong?

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I do believe we are nothing more than chemical and biological interactions and we become nothing when you die......

as to why that would make life meaningless.....i don´t see it that way.....to me the fact that there is nothing more than this life makes this life more valuable and precious....not less.

Prescious in your head maybe. In my opinion the fact that I am nothing gives me and everything (every atom) meaningless. Selfish(?), yes.

The answer to the question of existence lies in the brain itself. The most complicated apparatus in the universe(is what someone i can't remeber said). What is it that powers the brain? Just like the starting of a car the brain had to be jumpstarted somehow. It cannot start on it's own and function dependetly. IT is the one that gives the orders. IT is not dependent on anything. The physiology of the brain is the most interesting part of biology.

Our very self-realization is due to the brain. This is why i beleave in GOD. Only GOD could have created the brain. IT's complexity is eternal.

BP you're arguments are fundamentally flawed for others to agree as they are just your thoughts with no proof whatsoever, which is the whole point ~:)

Existence doesn't have to be proved, it is. If you are nothing before birth and after death doesn't mean you don't exist, there is potential in everything and so in nothing there is the potential for something. In fact, in nothing there is the potential for everything and so everything is likely to exist somewhere.

Damn it, i just don't have enough time to enlighten you all with my phenomenal idea.

I will be back later, and i will post.

Prepare for a super-post! (Keen willed only).

Note: All my responses to your quotes are applied with my current understanding of existence. Of which you can try and understand its basis through my responses.

vyan said: "each person is a complex peice of code learning through generations."

Very good. This is by far one of the most believable theories of our existence as Humans. Can i extend it however? The very fact that we cannot concieve the entirety of existence, is due to us being simple programs. As our computers have no clue of the our world.

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Byzantine Prince Said: "So if you were nothing then and you'll become nothing then there is no doubt you are nothing and you're existence is utterly meaningless."

I follow your theory and i find this point a little odd. Why does something mean nothing if it has existed only for a while? Answer: It has meant something, but only during its time.

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Makkyo said: "I'm just as happy not really knowing."

Ignorance is bliss. There is always this sentiment among people. Perhaps it is the only real solution?

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Byzantine Prince said: "What we have to comprehend that just "thinking" doesn't mean we exist..."

Try not to convince other. Instead find further understanding youreself. I think you are trying to classify "existence" with importance. I believe this is wrong because essentially (as vyan mentioned) we are made of energy, as are all other things, we can not measure our importance against them because we are equal, regardless of whether we can "think" or not.

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Note: I discard any notion of Soul or Spirit.

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Byzantine Prince said: "if you beleave that there nothing more then the mechanics then you automatically beleave that you will become nothing when you die. Also you would beleave that life is meaningless. Am I right or wrong?
."

This is the same as my view, until you mention that part about "life being meaningless". It has meaning to ourselves, however to the rest of the things in existence, it has probably no significance.

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Moromete said:"Descartes", "Wittgenstein", "Heidegger", "Foucault", "Hawking".

I have a much more raw viewpoint. Largely uneducated in comparision to your reading. But this is in order to stay philosophically flexible. Which seems like a nice virtue.

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The Emperor said: "get out more!!"

Some people pursue a greater understanding. Others, either due to apathy or interest choose the "Ignorance is bliss" door.

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Byzantine Prince said "Who cares about all those hacks. Nietzsche is the only philosopher I've read and it's enough. Anyone who actually thinks it's even possible that we are in a "Matrix" type of thing then they are definetely idiots."

You rubbish philosophers which are genius beyond your knowlegde while rubbishing people with a certain view. You sound like a very closed, narrow-minded fool.

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HERE ARE MY 2 MOST RECENT THOUGHTS ON EXISTENCE >>>>>>>>>

1) This one i though of when trying to concieve the begginning of time. I came to 2 opposite conclusion: a) There was no begginning, there will be no end. Time has and always will, be. We are the guests of time, who arrive in birth and leave in death. b) The is no begginning, there is no end. Thus existence is null. Nothing is present, there is no life. What we see and feel is nothing. We as a collective people are merely a representation of the only identifiable thing (called nothing). What nothing is, is whatever it want to be.

2) WYSIWYG - What you see is what you get. What we know, see and learn is not far at all from the truth. We are in existence, purely as we can prove it. The enthusiasts will seek more understanding, while the rest will suffice in content.

I have a few others, but ill spare them. I concieve these thoughts in my spare time, when i feel like it.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

Prescious in your head maybe.

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....and what else counts but that? ~D

you gotta stop overthinking this crap man ~:cool:

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Originally Posted by vyan

im not mad, deppressed or suicidal but one could go mad thinking about what we are or why we are here......

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You are most certainly not mad for pondering the question. Everybody faces it sooner or later in their lives.

I think the answer is that there is no meaning of life in any general sense. That's not a disaster. And it doesn't imply that 'life is meaningless'. Basically, it means you're free to give meaning to your life as you see fit. That is not a duty, it's not a necessity - it is simply a given fact. There are no hidden meanings either inside yourself or in the outside world, such as in evolution, in the Bible, any other philosopy or religion, or any outside source of 'authority'. You might go mad if you keep thinking that there is some obscure meaning to your life and you're somehow missing it, that you're missing the point of your own existence on earth. You're not, because there is none. The only point to your life is the one you consciously acknowledge. You can of course accept an outside source of meaning if you want to, but you are doing so at your discretion. It's your choice.

The downside of this is that you can't walk away from the consequences of your choices. You can never hide behind Karl Marx, the Bible or any other source of 'authority' and ascribed meaning, because you chose to follow them, believe in them, accept them as sources of meaning.

However, if you welcome the sort of inner freedom that comes with it, and if you acknowledge that many of the things that happen to you are actually the consequences your own choices, you may surprise yourself with what you are able to accomplish.

Life is anything but meaningless. The fact that the fundamental value of man is freedom, makes any life meaningful, because each individual can chose his own fate. The meaning of life is thus relative, according to the project of each man and woman. (yes, I just read existentialism is a humanism ~;) )

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The Emperor said: "get out more!!"

Some people pursue a greater understanding. Others, either due to apathy or interest choose the "Ignorance is bliss" door.

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Now in order to think that "Ignorance is bliss" you have to be deliberately hiding away from the truth...

Given that all of these many theories about the nature of our existance cannot ever be proven one way or the other then we will never know the truth.

This theory has only been embraced because of our new nature as technojunkies, Science seems to be the new religion, so our gods now in turn reflect that.

There is nothing to hide away from because we cannot ever know the answer to the question "why are we here?".

It's pretty shallow to think that the mecahnics of living beings is enough to show true existence.

Ok so you don't beleave in souls. What do you beleave in? I'm asking because if you beleave that there nothing more then the mechanics then you automatically beleave that you will become nothing when you die. Also you would beleave that life is meaningless. Am I right or wrong?

Right just means i got to make sure i enjoy life.