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Hello
I would like to ask a simple question, what exactly gives "spear" attribute? All phalanx units have this entry, but without it phalanxes still seem to work. I have an impression, that it prevents a soldier from using his spear/pike at close quarters, but I`m not sure.
Thanks in advance
The spear attribute is supposed to increase effectiveness against cavalry and decrease it against cavalry, at least according to the file.
-Simetrical
increase effectiveness against cavalry and decrease it against cavalry
????????
It`s decrease against infantry :) Anyway you are correct, but I would bet, that it`s responsible for something else, otherwise why didn`t CA use mount modifiers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simetrical
CA did use mount modifiers as well. There was a huge discussion on this over at twcenter.net so if you are curious you might try to dig up the thread. If I remember correctly the consensus was that the weakness against infantry that was part of the "Spear" bonus meant that the phalanx units were unrealistically ineffective against other infantry units, so they got the mount effect bonus instead. Some dedicated spear units (ie non-phalanx) just got the "Spear" bonus, although the application of each seemed to be a little random.
A lot people thought that this element of the game was somewhat rushed/sloppy as I recall. I only use the mount effect bonus, which I find increases the effectiveness against cavalry exceedingly well. It also has the advantage that you can vary how much of a boost to give such units, rather simply relying on the fixed spear bonus, which is either on or off. The choice is yours, however.
Regards,
AA
I went thru one day and added the spear attribute to all the units that carried spears.....Later in a campaign battle for an important city I charged some heavy cav. into the REAR of an eastern hillman spear unit..totally wiped out my cav...it was like instant destruction. This was a dead center rear charge, the infantry should have been crushed.
I went back tru removed the spear attribute and changed it to the bonus against mounts instead which works much better IMO.
I think spear units should get a bonus versus cav. but not that kind of bonus when hit from rear.
Yes, I recall that thread at twcenter.
Basically, the 'spear' attribute gives that certain weapon something akin to 'the touch of death' for cavalry and at the same time makes them horrible against infantry. Which is why if you notice carefully, almost any hit on a phalanxed unit still carrying the spear/pike will almost always result in a kill.
The mount bonus is usually better, however, the drawback is that it applies to BOTH weapons, which means units with primary and secondary (usually the sword) gets a bonus for both, making it unrealistic. It's quite useful for dedicated spearman though.
After some tweaking, I've felt that the mount bonuses for vanilla spearman are far too underpowered, especially if swordsman fare better. Take for example, Triarii compare to Principes.
Principes sword has the following values:
stat_sec 7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
Ie its attack value is 7 x (Rate of attack)1 = 7
Compared to Triarii:
mount_effect horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4
stat_pri 7, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
So against cavalry its total attack is (7+4) x 0.73 = 8.03
Whoa, thats ONE whole point of bonus compared to a normal swordsman! *sarcasm*. Fat lot of difference that'll make in a fight.
So therefore if one wants to make spearman truly effective, you might have to change the bonuses manually to suit your taste.
Cheers!
Btw: Why CA gave 0.73 rate of attack for spear, not phalanx units? Such thing makes for example triariiis hopeless, as they can`t even beat hastati!
slightly off topic:\
mount_effect horse +4, chariot +4, camel +4
stat_pri 7, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
what does the 25 represent in the statline?
on topic so if we sped up the attack to .9
that would make it (7+4) x 0.90 = 9.9
compaired to the 7 on the principes
does it speed the spearman up too much tho?
I don`t think it so easy. I gave 12 attack and 1 attack rate to triariis and they`ve finally beaten principes, but with heavy casualties. Now if you look at stats - principes 7 att, 16 def, triarii 12 att, 17 def, you would think, that principes should be soundly defeated, but that was not the case. I guess triariis and probably other spear units have slower attack animations by default, so even giving them 1 attack rating does not make them as fast, as sword units.
I`m however no expert on animations and their impact on game mechanics, these are just guesses.
I`m also curious, what "25" stands for. Maybe it`s fp/s?
I agree about the problems with CA's low mount modifier choices (ditto for terrain effects.) The charge bonuses for some cav units are huge, so spears need big mount effects. I've changed spears to +8 vs. cav and camels. Non-phalanx spears are a bit nerfed.
Same applies to elephants. Cav actually can do well vs. elephants if you tone down the elephants so that infantry have a chance, and that makes no sense. :dizzy2: As a result I started using -12 for mount effects for cav/camel vs. elephants. I also had to up the elephants own bonus vs. cav/camels to +8. I'm still seeing "momentum" problems for elephants vs. heavy cav when I cut the elephant unit size in half, and cut the hit points. Ideally, charge bonuses should be removed for horses attacking elephants.
CA has lots of inconsistencies and some things need polish to get the engine making sense.
To explain a few things:
stat_pri 7, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
The 25 represents the next time the unit attacks, ie ROF in 1/10ths of a second. So the default is one attack every 25/10=2.5 seconds. Setting this value to something small ie 1, will have them hack at each other like madmen, and a number too high will have them stand around all day. I think CA was probably planning to implement different ROF for different units (ie beserkers) but never got around to it.
stat_pri 7, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
The 0.73 is an 'attack factor' bonus that modifies the lethality of the hit. Setting this value high means that every hit will be a kill, if you set it low, then you will have more knockdowns/getups. Eg Setting it to 0 means that practically no-one gets killed, which is quite hilarious as guys just keep standing back up. Again, i think CA was planning to use this more extensively rather than the arbitrary allocation which seems to be existent atm.
On the topic of spearman, I've given a +12 mount bonus to triarii, and that seems to strike a good balance between realism and lethality.
Cheers!
Thanks a lot MAsta_KFC for clearing up the stats ~:) . May I ask, where did you found this info? Given that we have lethality, it`s possible to mod projectiles more extensively. If the attack of a projectile means it`s accuracy, and we have lethality, then it`s all like in MTW! :charge:
Anyway I still don`t get, why small spears and 2-handed axes have lower lethality than others.
Regarding your triarii, don`t you think they are pretty much too weak in comparison to other legionarie? Vanilla triariis stand no chance even against hastatis. As I mentioned before, I had to give them 12 attack and set lethality to 1 in order to make them stronger than principes, and become true elite. Otherwise they were just hopeless pushovers.
No problems, Woreczko.
The info is a culmination of the knowledge I have absorbed from lurking in the twcenter threads ~;) and some modding by myself.
Regarding Triarii, when I did tests, they beat principes, but usually by a very narrow margin. But yes, compared to post-marian legions, they don't stand a chance and against cavalry in there vanilla state are no better off.
The info card states they carry spear and gladius, which leaves me to beleive CA might have intended them to have spear as a primary weapon and perhaps the more lethal gladius as a secondary against infantry, but again, we'll never know. The only thing which makes them beat princs is the slightly higher armor values.