It was going well until...

So, I bought MTW recently, just to try it out. I first played as the Byzantines, on easy. I raised 7 armies (roughly 400 average each), for occupation duties in Greece and Bulgaria. I made peace with the Egyptians and the Turks, to ensure my flank is secure. But, the Turks went on war against Egypt, and I made enemies with the Egyptians.

After 50 years from the start of the game, I defeated the Turks and Egyptians, ready to face the Berbers in North Africa. I had about 2,500 men massed in Egypt, ready for assault.

I attacked the Berbers, but, they outnumbered me 2-1 with 5,000 men. But, I managed to call on reinforcements and destroy their army, and routed it.

But, my armies suffered severe losses, and I decided to raise 2 new armies in Egypt, when they counter-attacked, forcing me to abandon Egypt.

I made peace with them, and attacked Hungary, where I had over 3,000 men massed in Greece and Bulgaria alone. I assaulted 2 Hungarian held provinces and took them with very low losses.

I raised another army, and this time, the Hungarians opted for peace. I accepted, and a border was estasblished.

Just as my Empire was secure, I recieved a message that the Golden Horde (Mongols lol) appeared on the steppes near the modern-day Volga river with 4 armies. One army attacked my province of Georgia, forcing me to leave. They invad many other faction's lands, and forced them out.

But, I raised 3 armies, totaling 1,500 men, with 7 command stars each, and I invaded Kiev, and forced the Golden Horde to rout, and I also killed 1/3 of their troops with very little loss.

But, the Mongols invaded the Capital, and it's under siege. I raised another army, and retook Constantinople.

Mongols are so damned hard to keep out...

Yup mongels are very very tricky, especially with the byz. The byz don't quite have the mobility to meet a mongel army head on in battle. You have to meet them on your terms. Fight only battles against them that you have the advatage in, and get lots of archers. Bulgarian Bigrands, and Trezibond Archers are good against them, but reagular archers will do. The mongels start out a threat, but they can't support that size of an army. Just keep whiddling away at their army, because they rarely can replinish it. Eventually they will be so spread out, that your victory is unstoppable. Just keep defending and have patience. ~:cheers:

Welcome to the org, hope your stay here is enlightening and enjoyable.

the problem is that the horde will often out-archer you, plus they got lots of cavalry. your best options is to either find a bridge to defend (most provinces around khazar have bridges) or put lots of high valour varangian guards on a wooded hilltop. their archers wont be able to hit you and their cavalry will get a penalty for fighting in the woods. plus you are on a hill so that gives you extra bonuses.

The mongols are hard with the byz but the mongols have one massive flaw, if they cant sustain the momentum they establish when they arrive then they will be picked apart when factions adapt.

Never attack mongol held provinces until a few decades after theyve arrived, unless that province is like your capital or something vital. You have no reason to attack, they will crush you or cause massive casualties to you if you attack, defending the byzantines have a much bigger advantage, your archers can cut enemy mongol horse archers apart, your cavalry can match the enemy cavalry trying to flank you and the mongols have no high class infantry.

The mongols to survive need to conquer, sack, conquer, sack, conquer, sack again and again until they have enough money where they can settle. Otherwise they sit in ravaged provinces bankrupt and there armies spread thin.

So my advice is hire mercanaries is you can afford it, billmen, italian infantry, rus spearmen are good men to buy, use them to defend georgia if you retake it, and gather massive armies on your frontiers with the horde and they will breakdown their armies over time, always aim to destroy their cavalry even if your losing hit there cavalry its there only strength.

I've been playing the English at (Expert/Hard Level) and have had a few tiffs with the Golden horde recently. On one or two occasions I have attacked the horde to end up fighting a purley defensive battle almost completely surrounded. My English Army was predominantly on foot. 4 units longbowmen, 4 chivalric men at arms 4 billmen and 4 royal nights (not enough!)

My units were in half square formation and it was similar to cowboys defending a wagon train with the Horde peppering me with their bowmen (which seemed to be just about everyone in their army bar the heavy cavalry)
My longbowmen caused them some damage while their arrows lasted and a few of their horse archers were driven off by my cavalry only to reappear again and again. One of my billmen units was badly mauled but held its ground before I managed to support it effectively but quite out of the blue the Horde army just marched itself off the battlefield - not a rout caused by anything I'd done. In fact so fast that I didn't even have time to give chase with my cavalry.

The kill ratio bar was fairly even thanks to my longbowmen but probably a little in their favour due to the billmen getting into trouble. This happened in a subsequent battle as well. Given that to win they only had to stay on the battlefield for the half an hour as I was attacking, I was really surprised. They were far more manoueverable than my army and could have kept skippping around the field and I wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. Both our armies were around the same size. Although they didn't have masses of infantry they probably had enough to finish me off with their cavalry as well, given that my men had been softened up with plenty of arrows.

Has this happened to anyone else, is this a fault in the AI? I can't believe they marched off when they could/should have annihilated me with their vastly superior heavy cavalry. Any ideas why they should do this if it is not a fault? Does the AI play with a campaign frame of mind and try to avoid heavy losses in pursuit of a victory

This has happened to me before, but at the moment I'm drawing a blank on exact details. I'm generally left with my jaw gaping open murmuring "WTF?!?" over and over. It makes no sense when it happens. I view it as the game's attempt to provide 'divine intervention'.

Well I'm glad its not just my game then. The victory felt very hollow, I was really expecting a backs against the wall job with those battles - I didn't get to fight many against the horde, two with the retreats and then a victory in Khazar then the Spanish who own the southern half of the map at present finished off the horde in the next round leaving me with no one else to fight! Very selfish of them I thought

Welcome! How much time did you have in the battle left? I think that if the AI cannot finish you off with the current tactics and is reluctant to do a head on charge (even though it might win) than it simply retreats... That might be the case.

I don't follow any real tatics at all... I just send calvalry to pinch the edges of an army to stop it from retreating, and attack head on with byzantine infantry or other armoured units

I often try to flank attack if possible, and that has worked in many cases.

I often hide troops in the woods for sneak attacks, also.

Well, it seems now that the Golden Horde is out of my territory, and I'm spreading out onto the Russian plain, and raised another 2 armies for occupation. I'm ready to attack the Russians, Hungarians and the Polish, as I have many fresh armies at my disposal, totalling well over 6,000 men on the entire European front.

I had well over 200 years of game time left, so, I better start conquering!

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Originally Posted by bretwalda

Welcome! How much time did you have in the battle left? I think that if the AI cannot finish you off with the current tactics and is reluctant to do a head on charge (even though it might win) than it simply retreats... That might be the case.

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I think the battle was about three quarters through so you could be right there - perhaps its something I should think about rather than fighting through.

I've seen it happen before, not only with the horde. And not even over half of the battle-time. The enemy has plenty in reserve or is even strong on the field but redraws, in an orderly fashion. Who knows what rocks the AI's boat? With factions other than the Horde it usually is me being in greater numbers that probably scares him.

A note to the thread starter: indeed, byzantine vs Horde isn't the most easy one, 'cause you can't fight their (horse-army) game. And you don't have easy acces to Halberds (only mercs). In fact, the only pure anti-Horse troops are plain, ordinairy spearmen, which are primairily to be used as pinners (though a charge downhill at a Mongol Heavy Cav will shrink it to 20 eventually, causing it to rout. At a next encounter, the MHC will be subsequently dimished and will probable leave the field. In such way, if spearmen are adequately flanked, they will be usefull for defending and charging. The key is to pin the troops with 'em and hammer from the side or behind with cavalry (Katatank, Pronoi A or even Byz cav) or VG.
The hard part is how to avoid the situation described above, you standing in a formation as if you were a cowboy defending a wagon train against indians. So, find a nice hilly forested area, try to lure the Mongol cav into the woods and keep your front intact, and keep your shock units flanking ready. Missile units are allways welcome to blast at the MHC off course, but this is a lengthy way to decide the battle, or bring lots of 'em.
Mostly, my battle with Byzantines against the Horde go like this: either I'm on the defence and they keep coming with Heavy cav and foot soldiers. I let them advance, blast with whatever missiles I have, charge weak and exposed foot soldiers and try to maneuvre my cheap, expendable spearmen against his MHC. When the eventual clash comes, try to envelop them. byzantine infantry is perfect for mongol foot soldiers! only, defend them against MHC. Don't spread out too much, keep your troops together. Do not, repeat, not, pursue his Horse Archers, or his foot soldiers too far, apart from a complete rout (and then still beware of reïnforcements, they will hack you to pieces, since you come running, tired and totally divided). You will know where 'too far' is when your troops are running back undefended being run down by their cav.
When the first or second wave are run of the field, I try to meet them somewhere close to the point where they are being replenished (disadvantage is your own reinforcements. Do this only when you don't need your reinforcements or the are nonexistend. the advantage is that you can smash them when they are still ungrouped and unorganized. Tip: find a nice hill with trees, this is hard to do out in the open.

Hi just testing to see if this works before I type out a story hehehe

Cool now that I know it works...

I thought this would be a good string to tell everyone a neat trick to have some fun with the game.

I noticed while playing that the AI bases the size of respawned factions is based on the size of armies, caliber of troops and loosely on the generals of adjacent and attacked territories. This is true for returning factions that have been destroyed, the Palpacy and the Golden horde. So what I do is place huge armies (1000s hehehe) in and around the territories that the mongols arrive. you then have two choices; fight a gigantic demonic force with some very superior troops or remove all of your armies and watch these devils destroy the known world. If you go for the second option all you have to do is remove all your forces before they attack (so the mongols are there and it says they will attack next year) and the Horde will not be at war with you. This method also works in the reverse put minimal forces in the territories and the Horde shows up with its preset forces. This method also works for the Pope as well big or small force and you can leave without being at war with the Palpacy but really assassinating him is alot more satisfying. I am going to attempt this with the Brits next and sit safely on my island and watch the destruction from afar wahaha

P.s. this is a pretty cool site

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Originally Posted by Flarf

Hi just testing to see if this works before I type out a story hehehe

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Welcome! You know, you could use notepad or any similar typing application to write your post and then copy paste it into the box here. This way even if something goes wrong with the Org or with you internet connection you still have the text and can post it later...

I had even tried assinating the Pope before, but, chances are that you won't be able to. I sent about 9 assasins into Rome and kill the pope, but, it seems that I failed every single time.

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Originally Posted by Manstein

I had even tried assinating the Pope before, but, chances are that you won't be able to. I sent about 9 assasins into Rome and kill the pope, but, it seems that I failed every single time.

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Try to get a better assassin - a five star assassin will get him most times, but you still have a good chance with even a 3- or 4-star killer. Train some up on emmisaries, etc. Taking out a high-value opponent will often give you a star or two - if one of your assassins in training manages to kill a rival king or prince. Also, better assassins are more apt to make it past any border forts that the Pope may have built in Rome. You'll have a better chance if you move into the province one turn, then try the assassination the next turn (though this will increase your risk from any borderforts/couterspies.)