Boyar tactics against mobile enemies

I recently began a campaign as the Russians in High, difficulty Hard. My first chief enemy, of course, was the Mongols. The troops I used primarily to defeat them were halberdiers and crossbowmen (I do not have VI, so armoured spearmen were not available, and since regular spearmen are worthless, I built none). Eventually, the Mongolian lands were divided between myself and a growing Turkish empire, which became the next threat. After smashing several Turkish armies using much the same army composition as I used against the Mongols, it is clear that they will not pose a threat for much longer.

My question relates to the use of Boyars, which are reputedly one of the best units in the Russian army. I have yet to find a place of real significance for them against enemies that use significant numbers of mounted archers. The way I would like to use them, of course, is to harass the enemy from a distance until he is weakened, and then deliver punishing charges to the flank or rear. I am sure that I will be able to do this effectively against more infantry-heavy western armies when I eventually face them. However...

Eastern armies tend to field a lot of mounted archers, including MHA and Turcoman Horse. This tends to render the skirmishing abilities of the Boyars moot, since if I send them ahead of the army to skirmish, they will be outnumbered by enemy horse archers, which have been sent ahead of their own army. Thus, instead of harassing enemy infantry like I wanted, they would get bogged down in a shooting match against an enemy with superior firepower. Naturally, I don't want to waste my expensive and powerful Boyars in this way.

Besides, for skirmishing troops, Boyars are not that fast, and they lack the stamina to dash in and out repeatedly without getting tired, a requirement for extended skirmishing engagements. I had the same problems with Byzantine Cavalry in an earlier campaign; this led me to build horse archers instead, which seemed to make better skirmishers.

What tactics do you guys use with Boyars, especially when facing horse archer armies? Do you primarily use them as harassers, or do you go for melee combat? Are there other, more effective tactics that I'm missing?

Archers - and to a certain extent other horse archers - are horse archer units' worst enemy. They are the best way to fend off horse archer armies (e.g. Turks, Horde).

When using Boyars I would recommend treating them as normal heavy cavalry with the added bonus of being able to shoot. When I played the Russians I hardly ever skirmished with Boyars, because they are simply too expensive to send in front of the enemy line to get shot up. Instead I used them on the flanks and shot at other units whenever they had the chance and then charged in when they were needed in melee. If the enemy has no archers available then skirmishing is a viable option. However, as you stated, Kommodus, they tire quickly when skirmishing which will reduce their fighting ability when they are needed for melee. In my opinion, Boyars are best when used in melee, so having them run around too much is not such a great idea. Just shoot a few rounds and then send the boys in to break the enemy infantry.

On another note, I once had a 7-star Boyar general with 13 valour. He had attack 15, defence 21 and morale 30. Needless to say he was unroutable, nay, unbeatable. ~D

Boyars should mostly meelee on flanks and rear for the reasons you have outlined. Boyars should be seen as western knights which happen to be able to defend themselves against horse archers. Fight the Turks the same way you fought the Mongols, with halberds, arbs, and HA's.

Boyars (and to an extent Steppe Heavies) are really fighters who can also shoot.

I usually train my Boyars in provinces with armor upgrades, and when a unit is pitted against cheaper cav archers I put my Boyars on loose formation - the loose form and armor means they can survive a duel - and still have sufficient numbers to melee.

A common MP tactic is to hold the Boyars back until the enemy has spent most of their arrows, then to push forward with 3-4 Boyars and shoot before sending the infantry forward, then using the Boyars as flankers or anti-cav.

ichi :bow:

"On another note, I once had a 7-star Boyar general with 13 valour. He had attack 15, defence 21 and morale 30. Needless to say he was unroutable, nay, unbeatable"

How do you tell this about your general? The stars I get but where do you find out about the attack defence and morale stats? Is there a summary that I am missing somewhere?

Cheers

Press F1 during a battle. This will give all the stats of your troops. Note that this is an average per squad. Valour and stuff is calculated per unit.

I held a deep and now with hindsight ignorantly high lack of respect for boyars some time ago, but when i went the russian high period on expert, i fell in love with the unit whom without russia would have been doomed to mongol domination forever lol.

My tactics with them were exactly the same as with normal horse archers, except i left steppe heavy cavalry to have a shooting match and used boyars who appear to be better shots than most horse archers to strip numbers from the enemies more advanced units like halberdiers for example, then id use them to perform flanking attacks at the enemies weak points and rout them.

I dont know if boyars are the best overall horse archers and they are frightfully expensive but you can rely on them to stand in melee farl onger than the impressive byzantine cavalry or mongol horse archers or even mamluk horse archers.

They are also flexible, they can be used as regular horse archers and have shootign matches, powerful flanking cavalry, useful cavalry v cavalry units, useful against most infantry and are extremely sturdy in all uses as they wont rout very easily plus the 40 unit size is obviously tiwce as much as the wests royal knights so they have numbers.

I also find that they perform well against mongol hevay cavalry, their swords seem to be more effective than the mongol lances in melee, and are superior archers to their counterparts the perfect cavalry unit in which to fight the mongols i think.

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Originally Posted by _Aetius_

My tactics with them were exactly the same as with normal horse archers, except i left steppe heavy cavalry to have a shooting match and used boyars who appear to be better shots than most horse archers to strip numbers from the enemies more advanced units like halberdiers for example, then id use them to perform flanking attacks at the enemies weak points and rout them.

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In game mechanics all horse archer units use the same type of bow, so they should all be equally effective. However, a few players did some tests with foot archers (all types of foot archers use short bow except longbowmen) and it turned out that certain types had a slightly greater range than others, so there may be other factors.

Boyars are great horse archers, whose only downsides are their price and the fact that they are not as fast as ordinary HA. Off all horse archer types they are the best at melee fighting, almost equalling Kataphraktoi (Kataphraktoi are slightly better armoured and have a greater charge). I use Boyars in conjunction with ordinary horse archers: the faster HA do most of the skirmishing while the boyars stay on the background (but not so far back that they can't give fire support) and charge in when the enemy shows signs of weakness. This does require a more micromanagement when fighting mobile enemies, and you should take care of the vanilla HA's bad morale. Try building or retraining them in provinces with churches: it goes a long way against early routs.

Oh boy, it's a while since I did my Russian late campaign, but I did love the boyars and halberdier combo, I remember! I also remember lots of battles against the Horde where my last few halbs held out in the woods against waves of Horde heavy cav, uggh, messy but effective!!

Boyars I used more as heavy cav with added missiles, and let the lighter stuff do the skirmishing. They are too expensive (and royal on occasion) to get them shot to pieces straight away in an archery duel.

Re Ludens:

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all types of foot archers use short bow except longbowmen

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I believe the Trebizond archers use compound bows, which should give better range and penetration than the conventional short bow (though I'm not sure if the reference was just to recurved or laminated as opposed to self bows, I didn't think compounds were that old, but I could be wrong).

Mounted bows are generally shorter (40-45") than foot bows (50-60"), so will have poorer stats anyway, as well as fewer bows per unit.

But back to boyars!! Towards the end of my campaign I didn't let em onto the field with less than silver armour upgrade, and used them more as cover for the line. I also play on small units (only have a laptop to run MTW, not enough video ram) so no units of 40 boyars, alas!

As mentioned, the best part about Boyars are there Melee abilities and high moral. I normally dont build them, the Russians normally have enough princes as they are 105 florins maintence each unit :dizzy2:

That Melee ability has saved my butt more then once, as they rarely break and there are few units in the game that can go toe to toe with a boyar unit with even a avarage general.

I always struggle with horse archers as they are a pain to run down, Boyars arent fast so thats a problem to. For me I keep 1-2 steppe calvary units in my army that are direct support for the boyar units. There cheap and fast and are expendable. I send them in engage horse archer units and let the boyars widdle them down with bows at the same time. Yeah I loose the steppe calvary unit to friendly fire sometimes but at 188 replacement cost its not a bad way to protect your boyars.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Re Ludens: I believe the Trebizond archers use compound bows, which should give better range and penetration than the conventional short bow.

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In history, yes, in game terms, no. There is no such thing as a compound bow in the game. You can check this in projectilestats.txt (strangely, there is a mounted longbow, but it is not used as far as I know, and I really don't understand why it is added). However, at least one mod (Medmod v3) has added compound bows to the game.

And I notice I completely forgot to mention light cavalry in my reply to the original post. Steppe cavalry are off course essential to the balanced Russian army. They are top notch light cavalry: fast and deadly.

Yes, I've used Steppe cavalry in my armies from the beginning of the campaign. They are relatively useful for all the things you'd expect them to be good at - flanking, chasing routing enemies, conducting quick strikes against enemy missile troops and artillery, etc.

The only drawback with Steppe horse is that they are quite fragile; if caught by enemy cavalry or infantry, they won't last long. I expected this for the most part; after all, they are light cavalry. During my recent war with Egypt, however, I was surprised at how soundly my Steppe cavalry were beaten by Saharan cavalry. This seemed out of line with the unit stats, so I concluded that the disappointing outcome must be due to the Saharans having more upgraded weapons, armour, and/or valour, as well as the combat effectiveness bonus given to AI troops on the hard difficulty setting.

It's odd, though - during my Almohad campaign some time ago, I was disappointed at how fragile my Saharan cavalry were on the battlefield, but now that I'm fighting against them, they seem to be much more effective. I'm presently building up for Lithuanian cavalry, in hopes of getting some melee cavalry that's a little more solid. It'll be a number of years before I can get those, however.

However, even without VI, the Russians have a pretty decent lineup. Boyars really are excellent melee cavalry, and I'm enjoying the solid halberdier core of the army. I can let regular horse archers do the skirmishing, while my Boyars cover the flanks and provide extra missile coverage. There's nothing seriously lacking from this lineup.

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

The only drawback with Steppe horse is that they are quite fragile; if caught by enemy cavalry or infantry, they won't last long. I expected this for the most part; after all, they are light cavalry. During my recent war with Egypt, however, I was surprised at how soundly my Steppe cavalry were beaten by Saharan cavalry. This seemed out of line with the unit stats, so I concluded that the disappointing outcome must be due to the Saharans having more upgraded weapons, armour, and/or valour, as well as the combat effectiveness bonus given to AI troops on the hard difficulty setting.

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I agree. They are fragile and can break fast if you dont pay attention to them. Thats really the part that is the annoyance for me having to watch them. I do think believe strongly that they are excellent support for Boyars, and can be excellent troops for envelopment tactics with Infantry as well.

Steppe Cavalry do the one thing well that Boyars cant, they run down enemies and archers. Boyars main weakness is thier speed, and Steppe Cavalry are the perfect compliment.

However your point is well taken, never use them (unless your desperate) for a skirmish force.