I'm just wondering what people think is the best cavalry. I don't mean elephants or HA's either. Just pure cavalry.
I would have to go with Cataphracts. Their armour helps big with missles and the armour piercing mace is a big help in melee.
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I'm just wondering what people think is the best cavalry. I don't mean elephants or HA's either. Just pure cavalry.
I would have to go with Cataphracts. Their armour helps big with missles and the armour piercing mace is a big help in melee.
i think the top 5 order goes
1. Sacredband
2. Pretoriean
3. Catophract
4. Companion
5. Gothic Cavelry
And my top 3 for Cavelry Archers
1. Scythia Noble Archers
2. Catophract Archers
3. Camel Archers
But this is my opinion, i could be wrong...
You need to take into acount a units price, attack, and defence, and any bonouses that unit may have.
Armored War Elephants. I just LOVE watching tiny Roman bodies being flung high into the air. A strong majority of casualties occur when an army starts to rout, and nothing creates fear in the hearts of greedy Roman imperialist swine like a unit (or two, or three!) of charging pachyderms.
Leaving elephants aside for the moment, the Cataphract Archer gets my vote for best cavalry unit, based on its all-around versatility. Missile capability coupled with a Cataphract's armor and hitting power?!?!? They are like 18th Century ships of the line: anything that CAN catch them, doesn't WANT to catch them.
Unfortunately, Cataphract Archers are only available to the Armenians (right?), so I fall back on the regular Cataphract (or the Cataphract Camel if I'm playing the Parthians). They are a bit on the expensive side, but the unit upkeep is only 140!!!!!! (vs. 240 for Companion Cavalry and Praetorian Cavalry, or 270 for Sacred Band Cavalry) This wall of metal on legs is less expensive to maintain than, say, a unit of Greek hoplites!
Arguments certainly can be made for other cavalry units (Gothics, Companions, Sacred Band, Praetorians). These elite units are faster and have higher attack ratings, relying on speed and skill and elan to win the day. But the Cataphract compensates with sheer weight and a huge charge bonus. The Cataphract's armor, while heavy, gives him (and more importantly, his horse) matchless protection from missile weapons. Furthermore, you must remember: you only need a Level 3 stable to churn out Cataphracts, as opposed to a Level 4. This gives you excellent strategic staying power.
Best cav must Capadocian cav and Catphract archers, that is if you dont count elephants as cav
The best cavalry? Well it depends what you want to use them for...
For fast skirmishing cavalry any of the vanilla horse archers perform equally well. The only elite fast horse archer is the Scythian Noble Women, but they have the problem of smaller than average numbers, higher build requirements, higher cost and 2 turn build time to offset their superior combat stats. Overall I'd prefer the standard horse archer, being able to field more of them and in a shorter time.
For fast multi-purpose cavalry with both melee and missile capability, then it's either Numidian Cavalry or the Scythian Noble Women again. Both have good melee capabilities, although the latter is superior plus their missile attack is far superior - again this is offset by the small unit size, higher build requirements, cost and build time. Overall I'd prefer the Noble Women for their superiority in combat.
I prefer to avoid fast melee only cavalry, they might get to the fight quickly, but they usually die just as quickly when they get there. If I had to use them then it's between the Egyptian Desert Cavalry, Macedonian Light Lancers and the Scythian Head Hunting Maidens. The Egyptians have low build requirements, come in above average numbers and have an average but armour piercing attack, plus good armour/defences for light cavalry. The Macedonians are cheap, have low build requirements and have a good attack, especially the primary charge, but they're unarmoured. The Maidens have a good armour piercing attack, good armour/defences for light cavalry, but have a 2 turn build time, higher cost and higher build requirements.
All other cavalry, whether mounted on medium, heavy or cataphract horses, actually use the same skeleton model, therefore they all actually move at the same speed. It sounds wrong and perhaps should be, but I've ran a number of tests in custom battles with one unit of each type mount lined up in the same formation and then held 'races' to confirm that it's true. The light horse cavalry unit always wins, but the others finish at effectively the same time. There are slight variations, but this is due to the small random differences in timing as to when they actually started running even if I did start them all moving simultanously - one race the cataphracts might just finish second, the next race they just finish last.
Out of the three heavier mounts, the cataphract horse has a higher mass and thus will penetrate and disrupt formations more when charged into them. Both the medium and heavy horses have the same mass, which again might be wrong. Despite the common belief that only cataphract horses are armoured, there are no stats to support that and furthermore the description in the export_descr_unit.txt file seems to suggest that horse and rider are actually considered a single entity, sharing the rider's hitpoint(s) and defences.
Overall I'd say the Cataphract is the best heavy melee cavalry because of the good primary charge followed up with an acceptable armour piercing secondary attack, with excellent armour and only a tier 4 build requirement. Cappodocian Cavalry are very similar to Cataphracts, being slightly cheaper with their lower armour compensated for by a shield, but their secondary attack lacks the armour piercing capability making it no longer as acceptable for elite heavy cavalry. Gothic Cavalry and Scythian Nobles both have the big advantage of having only tier 3 build requirements and the latter are cheap for elite heavies; they both have good attacks - the Gothics having the highest base melee of any heavy cavalry - although their armour is below average for the elite heavies. The Sacred Band Cavalry, Companion Cavalry and Praetorian Cavalry are all fairly similar, with the Companions being the cheapest of the three plus having the best primary charge but weakest defence, while the Praetorians are the most expensive but have a shield giving them the best overall defence. I should also mention Sarmatian Mercenaries who're identical to Scythian Nobles, making them very useful for factions otherwise missing one of the heavy elites.
My best overall cavalry however are the Cataphract Archers. They're very expensive, but have only a tier 3 build requirement while sharing the same heavy armour of their melee brethren, plus they have a good missile and secondary attack. If cost is an issue, then Scythian Noble Archers and Persian Cavalry offer alternatives for heavy multi-purpose cavalry, with the former being a bit more expensive due to slightly superior stats.
It really depends on what you like to do with Cavelry and what you see there role in the game as.
Some see them as the backbone of your army, i however, see them as flank defenders for the real stars of the show, the infantry. Although Cavelry are good, they lack that ability to stay in a battle for long periods of time. They seem more fit for hit and fall back rather then hit and keep on fighting. I like to see Cavelry as a unit made to eather go on a suicide charge at the enemies center to cause mass confusion, or to be used to flank the enemies army, sealing their fate.
As for Cavelry Archers. I believe that they are and forever will be Cavelry ARCHERS. That 7 letter word that dooms units into a life of cheap waste. I see archers as a support unit made to act as pin cussions so you infantry dont have to. That is why Catophract Archers arn't good for Cavelry. For all their stats, their still just ARCHERS, with horses...
I rarely play as cavalry factions, so my favorite tactic is to have an infantry line capable of holding itself for as long as it takes me to kill the enemy cav and flank, I prefer to mix units of cataphracts and companions as Seluecids, because you get both the massive charge and speed of Companions and the staying power and missile resistance of cataphracts. Any phalanx unit will do to hold my line and once the cavgalry outflanks the enemy infantry it is a 5 second fight and a short chase and the battle is won!
I use neither my cavalry or my infantry as the stars of the show, they play different and supporting roles. Without good infantry for the enemy to charge into the cavalry cannot flank the enemy as well, without incuring great losses on a frontal charge. Even Greek light cavalry can work if you have very good infantry such as Spartans or Armored Hoplites.
Mainly a matter of opinion, whatever works! ~:cheers:
IMHO I think that the Cataphracts are the strongest cavalry in the game, I had tried fighting them off with Head hunters, Preatorian cavalry, Sacred Band etc and had not seen them all crumble in the wake of the Cataphracts.
There was once I loss all my gothic cavalry in a street fight even after I had charged them on the rear ~:eek:
So I think they are no doubt the best cavalry units ever, horse archer aside. :charge:
I used to much prefer infantry - in MTW I nearly always played as the English, fielding armies of billmen and longbowmen, and in RTW I have mostly played as the Romans, using hastati, legionary cohorts, cretan archers and archer auxilia - but I've have come to greatly appreciate the flexibility and firepower of the Cataphract Archer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zharakov
Against infantry, their greater speed allows them to dictate when, or even if, combat will occur while they rain in arrows. Heavily armoured infantry will fair better against the missile fire, but they'll still steadily loose troops, potentially tilting the balance of any melee more in favour of the Cataphracts. A pair of Cataphract Archers work even better against a pair of infantry, using their superior mobility to get one of them behind or on the unshielded flank of one or both of the infantry, thus increasing the effect of their arrows. Against the best heavily armoured infantry, such as Praetorians and Urban Cohorts or Armoured Hoplites, the Cataphracts are still likely to lose in close combat unless they've been really lucky with the arrows, but their opponents aren't going to be in a good condition, making them vulnerable to a follow-up attack. AI armies are usually mixed rather than mostly all one type such as Urban Cohorts, so there'll be plenty of relatively unscathed cataphracts who had an easy opponent such as Auxilia available to avenge their fallen comrades.
But what about foot archers, especially the elite who outrange the Cataphracts' bows? Again, their superior mobility comes into play, combined with their massive armour they'll be able to get through the zone they are outranged with little or no casualties. They can then go into a cantabrian circle which reduces their losses even more, then finally their armour and good secondary attack means that they can easily finish off a weakened unit of foot archers with a quick charge, again suffering few losses.
Light cavalry can catch them, but their low armour will results in lots of losses to arrows while doing so, and then they're generally on an inferior footing once they actually end up in melee with the Cataphracts, although the armour piercing attack of the Egyptian Desert Cavalry and Scythian Head Hunting Maidens make them very dangerous. Light cavalry against Cataphacts will often be a sacrifical attack to try and slow the Cataphracts so that infantry can perhaps reach the fight or simply to save other more valuable units from being slowly whittled away with arrows.
Heavy cavalry have a harder time catching them, but they can eventually do so if persistant. Their generally high armour will help reduce losses to the Cataphract's arrows, although this is partially offset by the longer approach time. Once in melee, the Cataphracts will be roughly equal against the other elite heavies, with the Cataphracts often having a slight edge, especially if they've caused a number of casualties with their arrows before close combat occurs. The only cavalry who will do really well against Cataphract Archers are Cataphracts, having the same armour plus an armour piercing attack.
Chariots, camels and elephants are overall the hardest 'cavalry' for Cataphract Archers to defeat, especially the elephants - but that's common to most units so it's not that great a failing. Chariots biggest advantage are their extra hitpoints, while camels cause the -4 mount penalty, both of which make them more dangerous than otherwise comparable cavalry, but still beatable. Against camels I try to kill as many as possible at a distance so that the mount penalty doesn't come into play. Against chariots I try to concentrate two or more units on one unit of chariots to kill them as quickly as possible - three hits against three different chariots leaves them all just as capable of killing your troops, but all three hits on a single chariot with three hitpoints is a kill, leaving the enemy one less chariot to kill your troops, the same effect scales up to the unit level. Against elephants the best option is to avoid them! Try to kill the supporting troops and then either withdraw to take down the elephants in a later battle when they're all alone and you have a fresh supply of arrows, or alternatively charge with everything you have left and hope for the best.
Like other horse archers Cataphract Archers do require a lot of work to get the best from them. You have to continuously be checking your units during a fight to make sure that they aren't being forced into melee before you're ready, especially with the poor skirmishing AI near the map edges. Unlike other horse archers, their armour means they're far more forgiving of mistakes.
I don't see Cataphract Archers as support troops, they're heavy cavalry who've just swapped their spears for the greater flexibility of a bow. Yes, they're expensive to build, but they're also very cheap to maintain and have low build requirements. Their toughness means that you don't often lose an entire unit, so they'll just keep gaining experience as you rebuild them between battles. As part of an all-cavalry stack they have a high strategic mobility giving you the option to field fewer armies, thus offsetting their high build cost.
Scythian Noble Lancers.
They have the largest charge in the game, mor than even cataphracts ~:cool: and are produced low in a low level stable AND they are disciplined.
~:cheers:
They also look extremely cool~D, I'm casting my vote behind Scythian Nobles aswell.
That's why I like Sarmation Mercenaries, who're an exact copy of the Scythians. ~:) It's always worthwhile sending a spare leader and a ship off to the steppes to recruit them plus mercenary horse archers. I've only ever done it as the Romans, but I intend it as a big part of my strategy if I ever play as the Greeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaLurker
Ive seen Head Hunting Madins eat Catophracts for Breakfast Dinner and Super... and ocasionaly Dissert...
In my game as Scythia, Catophracts died by the hundreds to Headhunting Madins and Scythian Nobles...
But maby its just me...
Sinner:
Catophract archers HAVE fallen in combat. Scythian Head Hunting Madins and Egyptian Desert Cavelry CAN catch them and WILL tear them appart once they do. I see Catophract archers as units ment for lureing enemy troops into death traps, sometimes the Catophract archers ARE the death trap. I just don't see them as being stead fast solders. They really cant fight well in Melee, and if they run out of arrows they HAVE to fight in Melee in bad situations.
That is not to say they are a bad unit. Personaly, I think they are smong the best units in the game... for what they are ment to do, AKA weeken enemies and be ARCHERS. I don't believe that they are a good all-a-round unit.
[QUOTE=Zharakov]Ive seen Head Hunting Madins eat Catophracts for Breakfast Dinner and Super... and ocasionaly Dissert...
In my game as Scythia, Catophracts died by the hundreds to Headhunting Madins and Scythian Nobles...
But maby its just me...
/QUOTE]
Yeah but not if you play multiplayer, I have seen my allies head hunters charging aganist them and got wipe out~OUCH! I think in campaign, they can become stronger because of accumulated exp and many star generals.
But I had used HHM them to destroy Armoured eles before! But then eles were vastly out numbered ~D 8 HHM aganist 2 AE. It was a manificent sight, huge battle mode! Feels like the "CHARGE OF ROHAN" in LOTR-ROTK.
Companions, followed closely by Cataphracts and Scythian nobels
i have to say that i liked macadonian light lancers, :charge: their very fast & are great for cutting down routing units, but can quickly reform to join battle, you also get loads of them & easilly swamp enemies from behind, not the best armoured or toughest cavalry in the game, but very effective all the same ~:)
Statwise... I hate to say this, but then the Praetorians are the best, what they lack in the charge compared to the Cataphracts they make up for in attackvalue, what they lack in armour and defense (which isn't all that much) they make up for in speed. I would love for the Companions to be the best, but they aren't.
Many people may saym that greek cav isn't good at all, but i think it rocks. it's affordable and can be used for quickly dashing into the enemy flanks in large numbers. Many of my battles have been saved by them.
I think that if you pit a group of companions on top of a group of Cataphracts against two groups of praetorians, deployed in a similar fashion. The combined Companions and Cataphracts will win, because the Companions can keep leaving and charging while the Cataphracts take advantage of their staying power. If you mix Companions high attack with their high charge you get one hell of a charge.... It will take apart an Urban cohort no problem and Companions are fast enough to hunt down routers...
But whatever works for anyone else is the best for them.
Yah, the Seleucids do have the best combination of heavy cavalry, plus camels, scythed chariots and elephants too! ~:) Just a pity that they have no horse archers.
I'd personally prefer a pair of Cataphracts for a fight against other cavalry, thana Cataphract/Companion team. The few kills I'd miss out on in the spear charge will be more than made up by the faster kill rate with the mace plus suffering fewer losses in return.
The base attacks of the Praetorians might be higher than that of the Cataphracts, but it still doesn't compensate for the latter's higher charge, armour piercing secondary and better defence.
In the opening charge...
Praetorian attack of 21 (base 12 plus 9 charge bonus) against Cataphract defence of 23 (armour 18 plus 5 melee defence) giving a difference of -2.
vs
Cataphract attack of 22 (base 7 plus 15 charge bonus) against Praetorian defence of 22 (armour 11 plus 7 melee defence plus 4 shield) giving a difference of 0.
So advantage to the Cataphracts in the charge.
In the following melee...
Praetorian attack of 12 (base 12 for either spear or sword) against Cataphract defence of 23 (armour 18 plus 5 melee defence) giving a difference of -11.
vs
Cataphract attack of 9 (base 9 for mace) against Praetorian defence of 17 (armour 6 due to armour piercing plus 7 melee defence plus 4 shield) giving a difference of -8.
Again, advantage to the Cataphracts.
And since both mounts use the same skeleton, they move at the same speed so there's no mobility advantage for the Praetorians to exploit in compensation.
Where I would perhaps consider Praetorians over Cataphracts is if I were fighting low-to-medium armour opponents. Anything up to 5 armour gives a slight offensive advantage to the former since the Cataphracts get little or no benefit from their armour piercing mace. However, the Cataphracts are still superior defensively so the Praetorian's attack advantage in these circumstances isn't enough for me.
Strategically the issue is closed for me though. Cataphracts require just tier 4 stables to the Praetorians' tier 5 and although they cost 50 more, their maintenance is 100 less, so in just one turn they're cheaper.
Depends on the desired role. Im not a very cavilry minded person. Here are the roles i think that depend on you answer:
- Full-On frontal charging = Heavy cavilry
- Pursuing = Any light cavilry
- Harassing = Missile cavilry
- Response = Light/Medium cavilry
- Flank manouver = Medium/Heavy cavilry
Anyone think of any other Cav roles?
I am using the Seleucids and while I love my homegrown cataphracts, I really like the Sarmation Mercs I can get. I don't know why, perhaps I think they sound cooler.
And is it just me or does the computer REALLY need to bulk up its thought on how to defend against cavalry? Sure, the Brutii can smack my phalanx if they get the chance (well, everything but my Silver Shields), but when my Cats, Chariots (and now elephants) can obliterate an entire wing so quickly, why do they concentrate on my infantry in the middle?
Azi
I say Barbarian Cavalry is on of the best out there. It is not a cataphract, bet hey, the most crucial moments of the game are usually at the beginning and low end units decide them. Barbarian cavalry is a real pearl, especially for the Julii, better stats that equites, they gain those first chevrons really quickly so the stats improve even more, and there are way more of them in one unit compared to the equites. :charge:
GAH!
Vanya sez... so far, Vanya has been most impressed with Carthaginian Long Shield cavalry. Cheap and excellent shock.
But obviously, this simply cannot compare to the elite Headless Heavy Sumo Scythed Chariot Lancer Elephants! These boys not only stomp enemies into pulp, but also dice them into crisp squares with their scythes. And should the silly enemy pigdogs avoid the elephant feet and the scythes, there is the long, heavy reach of the 3 very unhappy armored sumo warriors on the chariot itself to contend with! (And because they have been spawned from the bosom of Vanya thanks to the miracle of cloning technology, they share Vanya's invincibility, though they are not inmortal since Vanya can still kill them... with the Sacred Spoon of Samarkand... a legendary weapon of... well, Vanya digresses...)
:charge: :charge: :charge:
:bow: :bow: :bow:
GAH!
My favorite use of cav is to just charge the rear with the most powerful attack possible and then the army routes due to my cav rolling over half of the army....
Companions are excellent at this, especially when upgraded and with an experience gain temple.