I haven't really found an effective way to use them. The main problem is their short range...they're lucky to get one throw off before the enemy is upon them and they start skirmishing.
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I haven't really found an effective way to use them. The main problem is their short range...they're lucky to get one throw off before the enemy is upon them and they start skirmishing.
have ur melee charge in then aim them at either their most expensive units or what ur most expandable unit is fighting.... in truth the don't FF as often as arrows...... but their dmg is also very crap against later units it seems... i had one group deplete all volley vs a legionary cohort and they only got 1 freaken kill!!!!!
On the up side they usually melee slightly better than archers........ so i usually just turn off skrimishign and charge them right in after they use up... but in all seriousness... i wouldnt use them if i had better options... espically as romans the legion line of unit's javlin acturally do far more dmg (though less volly) i usually just turn all of them on fire at will and it works much better.)
In all seriousnesss they need to seriously buff the normal javlin thrower's dmg or some other department.
Throw them at the enemy, pointy end first... ~D
Sorry, couldn't help myself...
Sorry, I should've specified that I'm talking about MTW not RTW, but your tips probably apply to MTW too.Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingWave
I find javs work best if you can swing them around the enemy's flank and pound them from teh sides or the back. Generally I leave them in reserve, harassing the enemy with arcing shots - and then being there to fill gaps or flank the opponent while they're pinned
Personally I always found them a little underwhelming in MTW compared to the archers and crossbow men, with the exception of the Spanish mounted type. It is one element of the game that is simply much better realised in RTW...
Personally I stick them out in front of my lines, usually a cav unit or fast infantry or whatever will try to swat them away... depending on how many swatters there are, and how close the rest of the enemy force is, I either envelop the chasing unit with the rest of the javelinmen - or let them retreat to my lines, great for isolating and slaughtering the enemy's faster units, thus allowing me to flank at will when the rest of the opposition turns up. The javelinmen can then either stay behind the lines throwing over friendly heads, or zip out to the sides and carry on throwing until empty, when they hit the rear of the enemy as needed.
Wither MTW and RTW - I find skirmishers take a loooong time throwing their javs. This is one of those things which annoys me the most about the series - the way skirmishing doesn't really work all that great most of the time. I love in RTW how the jav length of throw is extended, but it still needs some work.
As opposed to RTW you can actually throw the javelins over the head of your battleline in MTW. It works.
But as mentioned earlier it is better to have them in the rear or at the sides of the enemy. If at all possible try and get them to throw at cavalry. I had a unit of Kerns almost wipe out a unit of Royal Knights (locked in a fight with Feudal Sergeants).
In MTW my number 1 use was against horsearchers or jinettes. Against jinettes you are going to take some good casalties but you are making them exhaust ammo on a cheap unit. They are deadly against horse archers, you can usually cut the horsearchers in half with maybe 10 percent casuaties and even if they skirmish away and shoot your javelinmen up you made them expend there time and ammo on them while your main army was able to do it's job.
My secondary purpose was those cataphractoi's
Oh I hated those katatanks - only Javs or a load of HA running about could whittle them down to a reasonable size - and then the Jedi generals to boot.
I tried some of these tips.
so basically hold a unit in place with spears and when they're screwing around with them, move the javs around and hit their rear. it worked, and man what a satisfying sight seeing the javs connect and wipe 1/3 of their unit out in one volley.
thanks guys
Exactly. Another use with fast javelins is to use two units to surround a normal speed armoured foot unit (VG and Joms in VI are my favorites to do this against) and use them on skirmish to chase the foot unit first from one side, then the other. You can cause them to rout after about 3 volleys.
mfberg
I love javelins - very deadly. I don't put them in front of my troops anymore - their range is short and they take a moment to aim and fire - I had them overrun a couple of times. Now I keep them behind my infantry line. They are still very effective if you have them fire over your troops into the melee. Even better if you can keep a couple of them unengaged, and then after the melee has started run them around for a clear shot at the enemy. Try to target knights and heavy cavalry - they go through any armor.
I really like it when I get to use them in a bridge battle. Plug the bridge with some heavy infantry, then march your javs in behind them and arc your fire. Since the front line is constricted by the bridge they will keep up their fire for some time, and will just wear away every unit the AI throws at you.
Best,
P.
With the patch they are actually useful. They are functioning as skirmishers because friendly fire has been fixed, so you don't have to shut off fire-at-will and skirmish mode.
Well last night I remembered to install the patch on VI because I installed it when I didn't have internet on and just forgot, so I'll see if they've gotten even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Well I personally find it the other way around... they are much more useful in MTW than RTW (though they seem to have longer range in RTW)
The main problem is in RTW arrows are very effective vs pretty much anything, in MTW except for longbows and crossbow types the rest hardly dent any of the later heavy armored units....
That's where javlin comes in... they have a much much higher armor piercing rating (in fact they look like one hit kill) so basically just tie up those expensive knights/kings/katanks then unless massive javlin on them. trading ur folder for their king is always worthwhile.... espically those 9 star katank byzantian jedis that can kill a full army by themself XD....
Personally, I dont use javalins (or Irish dartmen/spearthrowers) in my own juggernaughts, but rather I keep them as garrison troops along with urban militia. The javalins, by being cannon fodder, allows you to drain the enemy of their ammo, allowing your infantry to advance without fear of getting cut down before they reacht the main force. Use light/heavy cavalry to flank any infantry/cavalry who are going to overrun your javalins.
It is possible to set them behind your lines, but they are somewhat less effective there and can still cause some FF. I prefer to get them behind the enemy lines once battle is joined and target the most heavily armoured forces they have while spreading the javelin men out as wide as I can. This way, once the enemy lines break, they walk straight into the javelinmen who take a lot out in hand to hand and slow their retreat significantly.
Not to mention if things get bad you can charge them into the enemy rear. While chances are they wont do much damage unless they're in posession of a good deal of valour and weapon upgrades, but the simple fact that you charged the rear is usually enough to break a foe that has been in combat for a prolonged period.
Well, I can tell you how I use javs in MTW. As I play with Hungarians, I have found them irreplacable for dealing with that damned katatank generals!
The tactic "from the book" is this:
The main body is a spearwall, of let's say 3-4 units of spears 5 ranks deep each. Behind them are 1-2 units of slav javelinmen 2 ranks deep. Behind javs are 2 units of archers and 1 crossbow unit 3 ranks deep each. On my flanks are men at arms and urban militia (for flanking of course). Further out on the flanks I put horse archers (or szekelys, even better!). My general royal knights are far behind so that they can flank on either side, as needed.
Stupid AI will charge its katatanks in the spearwall, and once it's pinned, one o two volleys from my javs and archers and xbow will decimate all those katatanks. Then I use urban militia to finish the armored units, men at arms kill any spears and horse archers flank the enemies rear guard and harrass the archers.
Of course, the tactic will never be the same, much depends on lay of the land and opposing units. As a general rule, put javs behind your spearwall.
Also they are pretty valuable for bridge defense. Yesterday I defended a bridge in swabia. I had mainly javs and archers and one spear and two urban militia. I've poisitioned them in a classic U shape with the center of fire on the exit point of the bridge. Stupid AI charged with everything they had (including archers) at the same time. Of course a bottleneck appeared. As soon as a unit (any unit, even general) stepped on my side of the river they started to rout thus creating panic for every unit that was crossing the bridge at the moment while they are trying to flee from the "rain of death". Body count: me - 20 men, ai - 1400 men.
Sweet!
I would recommend a unit or two in every army since they will break a stalemate in a second. Just for the love all you recognise as holy, don't let them shoot up the hill! They'll mown trough your own units instead. Oh, I almost forgot! Put them off skirmish AT ALL TIMES, or they'll never get to shoot.
The best use for javelins? Target practice for my archers! ~:)
žQuote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
LOL!
There are basically three ways of using javelin troops, apart from as cannonfodder.
1) Fire support: this tactic basically uses them as short-range archers. You place the javelins just behind your frontline, two or three ranks deep (two is better), skirmish mode off, hold position on, and then order them to throw their javelins at the enemy units engaged by the front-line. You can expect some friendly fire in this scenario. It works best if you have a very thin frontline, say two men deep. The Almohads have a killer combo for this tactic: Murrabitin infantry and Muwahid foot: the Muwahids have good enough stats to survive for a while, they will recieve a rank bonus (of one rank, but still ~D ) and if they accidently end up with a javelin in their back, they are easy to replace.
This tactic works best when defending a hill. Don't try it when attacking a hill, as you will only hit your own men.
2) Flank attack: in this case you also pin the enemy with one of your units, but this time you have your javelin men move in from the sides. This is a bit tricky, especially when you are using large units. You need to get there before the enemy breaks through your pinning unit, but those javelin men take their sweet time gettting in position and getting ready to throw. Deeper formations are recommended to make your units less cumbersome. Jinnetes are better suited for this tactic because they are faster. Remember that for a unit to be in range the 'flagbearer' of the unit needs to be in range, so if you come in from the flanks you need to get closer to the unit than when you come from behind.
That said, when properly timed this tactic is devasting and particular useful for depleting and demoralizing expensive armoured units, such as royal knights and Kataphraktoi. By attacking from the back you will avoid any shield bonus the unit might have and neither do your own men get in the way.
3) Bait: get an enemy infantry unit to chase your javelin men by attacking them from the flank and then skirmishing away. This is useful for disorganizing the enemy army and to prevent powerfull infantry units like huscarles from taking part of the battle. They cannot stop chasing because then the javelin men will turn and start pelting them again. Be aware that enemy cavalry can put a quick stop to this so make sure they are occupied or neutralized. Also, target slow infantry for best results: javelin units are fast, but so are Janissary heavies.
This tactic works best if you can double-team the enemy: one javelin unit is being chased while the other is taking shots at the enemy (this a horse-archer tactic that also works with javelin men, though not as well). Clever use of hills is neccesary if you want maximum damage using this tactic. Unless you repeatedly succeed in getting the enemy to run past your ranged units, you should not expect to get many kills, but when used properly it will tire and demoralize a powerfull enemy unit and prevent him from taking part of the battle. It does require a lot of micro-management, and should not be attempted against, or even in the vicinity of, enemy cavalry, since they can get within sword range before the javelin men have finished reading their javelins.
You can find a detailed discussion of using javelins in this thread. It was originally about horse archers, but halfway through page three the disussion turned to javelins.
IMHO this is about the most deadly line up you can field against heavily armoured enemies. So effective its almost boring. Shame the AI never uses it.Quote:
The Almohads have a killer combo for this tactic: Murrabitin infantry and Muwahid foot: the Muwahids have good enough stats to survive for a while, they will recieve a rank bonus (of one rank, but still ) and if they accidently end up with a javelin in their back, they are easy to replace.
@ Bob the insane
Knew I was doing something wrong, throwing them sideways
Javs are also very handy when targetting exhausted infantary. Especially fast moving javs. My favorite moment with javs was when I had a group on a hill raining death to two groups of feudal sergants. The Feudals kept routing after 2 volleys
i find that throwing them is by far the most effective way to use javs ~D