Was wondering if the Sarissophoroi are going to be implemented?
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Was wondering if the Sarissophoroi are going to be implemented?
There is currently some discussion of what sarissophoroi was. Some argue that it was the same as Prodomoi, while others see it as a heavely armoured cavalry and so in the category of shock cavalry (like the companions, which are also shock cavary). So probably it isn´t gonna be featured in EB....
From https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43480 :
Macedonian unit list, a work in progress:
Taxeis Hoplitai
Taxeis Phalangitai
Thureophoroi
Pezhetairoi
Argyraspidai
Hypaspistai
Pheraspidai
Akontistes
Slingers (name subject to change)
Toxotai
Peltastai
Thrakioi Peltastai
Prodromoi
Hippakontistes
Thrakioi Prodromoi
Thessalian Cavalry
Hetairoi
Sarissophoroi is a tricky term in that it applies both to Phalangites and Xystophoroi (the Xyston of 270 B.C. being a long two handed lance). If you're talking about the cavalry, Xystophoroi and the Thessalians, not to mention the Hetairoi, will carry these long spears.
If you're talking about phalangites, then they're covered.
Let´s see if I can translate this list (Greek isn´t exactly my language. But I do speak Portuguese fluently ~;) )
*Taxeis Hoplitai - Hoplite batallion?
*Taxeis Phalangitai - Phalangite batallion?
*Thureophoroi - Thureos (shield) bearer. Presumably lighter troops that fill the gaps between Phalangite blocks.
*Pezhetairoi - (trans?) Companions on foot? So presumably phalangites with heavier armour.
*Argyraspidai - classic Silver Shields
*Hypaspistai - (trans?) Elite Royal Guardsmen. I presume they use Iphikratean spears.
*Pheraspidai - ??????
*Akontistes - Javelin armed infantry?
*Toxotai - (bow carrier) Archers
*Peltastai - (Pelta carriers/those that throw) Skirmishers/Light troops
*Prodromoi - Scouts/Light Cavalry
*Hippakontistes - Javelin-armed Cavalry
*Thessalian Cavalry - Shock cavalry from Thessaly
*Hetairoi - Companion Cavalry (Shock Cavalry)
What is Thrakioi???
I was referring to the cavalry which were armed with sarissae. Arrian mentions them quite a few times. It seems that these were the best riders of the Macedonian cavalry and therefore could also perform as prodromoi (scouts). In set-piece battles they operated as heavy cavalry using sarissae. That's what I gather from what I 've read so far.
The pikemen of Alexander's army were called pezhetairoi. They were the standard troops, not elite.
Does any one know for sure whether the hypaspistai used the Iphicratean spear? It wouldn't make any sense.
Pheraspidai means shield-bearers, literally. However I have no idea what they were. Can someone enlighten us?
Thrakioi means Thracians.
Pheraspidai does indeed mean shield bearer. They're a form of close assault infantry.
Taxeis only means batallion in a modern sense. In the ancient Greek, it meant militia, among other things.
Hypaspistai use overhand spears.
Are you sure that the hypaspistai used the 8ft spear? I was under the impression that they were the best men of the pezetairoi, armed in the regular fashion.
Actually, I think it's kinda unclear how Hypaspists fought. I haven't seen anything saying "Hypaspists fought like that" so far, though there are many assumptions.
Unramma:
Be happy I got peltasts right! ~;)
yes I thought that the Hypaspistai fought with just normal swords, I thought they were anti-infantry troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City
never thought about the fact that they might have fought with spears..
Hypaspistai were armed in the hoplite fashion their job among others was to dive in the opposing front of spears go under them and engage the enemy in close combat with their swordsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Although most scholars agree that they carried some sort of "hoplitish" equipment, there is no direct proof of this. What we do know is that they´re elite, and tacticaly flexible.
The term sarissophoroi seems to designate the same type than hetairoi or 'companion' cavalry, only using a terminology that attends to weapon usage instead of their condition of noblemen.
Even if it's not exactly the same term ('sarissophoroi' could actually be 'client' or 'servant' companion horsemen accompaning and filling the lines along the proper 'hetairoi'), I think that 'hetairoi' noble cavalry may cover both of them. They would form the bulk of the companion units, fighting along with their patrons, but they all would form the same units and use the same armor and weapons (paid by their noble lords). There was a similar institution in gothic cultures (gardingi ).
Just my theory.
Actually the word sarissophoroi only indicates soldiers armed with sarissa pikes, which can be applied to both foot and mounted troops.
As far as cavalry go, based on my very limited research on the matter, I´m more inclined to say that they were more along the lines of Prodomoi (literaly "those who run ahead" - so they´re scouts, or light cavalry), somewhat similar to vanilla´s light lancers, but with longer spears. :book:
Yes. opinions do differ on Hypaspist equipment. The argument basically goes along the same lines as this discussion: Sarissa or normal hoplite spear?
What is known is that they were an elite unit, often the decisive infantry unit.
At Chaeronea, Philip himself commanded them, and used them in a feined retreat to draw the Greek left wing foreward and open the center gap through which Alexander's Companions charged.
Given their mobility (a neck-strapped, sarissa-wielding syntagma would have difficulty running backward and quickly turning in unison) it makes more sense that the Hypaspist was armed in original Hellenistic fashion.
Well, in addition were they not posted on the right, offensive flank of the Sarissa armed infantry. This would seem to indicate they had greater mobility than the phalanx, being seen as an offensive unit. They would need to be mobile to operate alongside the cavalry. Even if their deployment was simply as flank guards for the phalanx when the cavalry attacked, it would make no sense for them to be Sarissa armed.Quote:
Originally Posted by LAST.MAN.STANDING
Glad to see you're back Dux Corvanus!
Oh, thanks! ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanderpants
(Sssssh... I'll give you your 10$ later... ) :wink2:
Hey Khelvan, remember when you said "slingers" was a name that was subject to change? How about Sphendonetès (singular) or Sphendonetoi (plural)?
Hope this helps :book:
Yeah, that seems familiar. Matt had it changed already for the other Successors, he just hadn't done so for Macedon yet...
hypapist seemde to have been multi-functional and very flexible.
they are mentioned as bodyguards, skirmishers, phalangites, hoplites, swordsmen and hard-core assault-unit in sieges.
will be hard to implement, but surely EB will choose the best.
if the core of macedon is unchanged the swordsmen or hoplite will work best as flank guarding the phalangites.
John V.A. Fine The Ancient Greeks, Harvard University Press, Cambridge U.S.A., 1983 .
Hetairoi means commpagnons and Pezhetairoi = foot commpagnons… From 7th century BC Macedoinan army was almost from cavalry who gave Hetairois, members of big families and nobles… Alexander I thought out Pezhetairoi. Hetairoi were noble cavalry who were given by two first classes. Alexander I introduced in Macedonian military Pezhetairoi. In infantry, although was called Pezhetairoi, were third class, too.
I was bashed on another thread for incorrectly translating Pezhetaroi as "foot companions".....it was replied that they were simply all of Alexander´s phalangites...hmmmm....which is it then? ~:confused:
I hope you weren't bashed by anyone from EB.
Well....bashed might be an overstatement... :embarassed: .....more like sternly corrected. ~D
But are pezhetaroi foot companions or plain vanilla phalangite? I don´t mean it in a literal sense (which is, obviously, the first), but in the use it had in battle, or its status in the army.
Apparently Urnamma is having forum troubles, and has promised an answer to all of these Greek questions tomorrow.
Right, thx. Why not make a thread that compiles all of the preview info released so far, so there aren´t any of these questions on unit´s uses, translations, etc...?
I got some free time.....:idea2:
If you really want to, be my guest ;)
Don't forget our TWC forums, as well ;)
I just asked this question to Urnamma by PM. Here it is :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma